[Spoilers] Grotsnot massively inflates his own View count

[suboptimal]

[...] to +100% chop a Holy Site into Settler #2, due approximately Turn 40 (who needs Maritime Industries when you have Hojo ). [...]

As great as this sounds, that is unfortunately not how Hojo's ability works. The special Japanese districts cost 50% less, it's not a production modifier but a discount to the cost.

I believe Grotsnot's interpretation is correct, for better or for worse.  During PBEM 3 I noticed that the cost reduction was actually implemented "behind the scenes" as a +100% production modifier and that this flows through to chops and resource harvests.  At the time this was just observational as I hadn't yet become familiar with the game's files, but there's better evidence in the DebugGameplay.sqlite file generated in-game:

Hojo's trait is coded as TRAIT_LEADER_DIVINE_WIND in the LeaderTraits table

That trait gives five ModifierID's in table TraitModifiers.  Three of these refer to the district boosts.  Let's take the Holy Site one, TRAIT_BOOST_HOLY_SITE_PRODUCTION.

In ModifierArguments this ModifierID has two entries.  The Name column specifies the arguments, the Value column is the actual argument.  The arguments for TRAIT_BOOST_HOLY_SITE_PRODUCTION are "DistrictType" (Value = DISTRICT_HOLY_SITE) and "Amount" (Value = 100).  

This modifier is structured in exactly the same manner as the district production bonus for France and the unit production boosts for the various policy cards, among others.

[Grotsnot]

Yep, I originally thought it worked as half cost, too. SP testing proved otherwise. Was actually an annoying surprise at the time since it meant the +50% chop I overflowed into it was less than a regular chop would have given. So, for better or worse, can't get tomfoolery like 1/2 cost * Limes Overflow = 4x chops. But at least I can use the district chops themselves to accelerate other builds!

The key is that they aren't unique Japanese districts. They're regular districts but with a bonus from Hojo. Which, as suboptimal found, is easier to implement as a +100% since there are already so many + modifiers out there. I can't think of any abilities that actually reduce costs. I suppose they could have implemented it as Unique "HOJO_HOLY_SITE" etc Districts but that might have unintended downstream effects? At one point didn't unique districts not count toward the district cap or something?

Didn't chop here, but some test game screenshots for reference:

HS and Campus show the same cost


Placement doesn't adjust the HS cost (like it does when the UI fails to update a displayed District Discount)


And we get 12.6*2

Thanks for looking out for me after the Quarry Incident, though

[Cornflakes]

Oh my! I don't know how I missed that when I played a couple test games prior to PBEM 11. That gives some intriguing possibilities.

[Grotsnot]

Indeed! Very helpful on a Pangaea map since don't have near so many coastal cities for Galley chopping. Wish I could say I planned that when I picked Japan but I didn't figure this out until I started planning out the Saunders Holy Site and running test games

Also, Turn 19 is in the can. Was a morning turn so gonna have to wait until after work for the report. Nothing major but got a little more good news from the map (spoiler: not a desert) and the barbs are getting uppity. Also boosted Craftsmanship which is right on the Excel schedule

[suboptimal]

Oh my! I don't know how I missed that when I played a couple test games prior to PBEM 11. That gives some intriguing possibilities.

The million question is whether the bonus is additive or multiplicative with Magnus.

[Grotsnot]

Right, so it's lunchtime and I'm bored. Let's talk Religion. First, up the one that matters, Follower Beliefs:
(from Wikia again, reformatted and grouped by bonus type)

Shrine+Temple Bonii
Choral Music   Shrines and Temples provide equal to their intrinsic output.
Feed the World  Shrines and Temples provide equal to their intrinsic output.
Religious Community   Shrines and Temples each provide +1 Housing.
Faith Purchasing
Jesuit Education  May purchase Campus and Theater Square district buildings with .
Warrior Monks   Allows spending to train Warrior Monks, medieval land combat units with a unique promotion tree. May only be purchased in a city with a Temple in its Holy Site.
Misc Benefits
Zen Meditation  +1 Amenity in cities with 2 specialty districts.
Work Ethic  +1% for each follower.
Divine Inspiration  All world wonders provide +4 .
Reliquaries   Relics have triple yield of both and Tourism.

I was originally leaning toward one of the Shrine+Temple bonuses, since Hojo gets HS so cheap. But I've been finding it harder and harder to cram in the Shrines & Temples in my build order. Got so many things I want to make: Builders, Settlers, Walls, can't forget Units, the list goes on... It feels rather uncreative to grab Jesuit Education but, especially with Goddess of the Harvest, it really is the best option. I've been wanting to save up my faith for wave of Samurai purchases but that's looking more and more foolish over time Not sure I can even get to Theocracy before Samurai are obsolete. Better to have my GotH chops pull double-duty by contributing to & infrastructure. I had also previously misunderstood Jesuit Education and thought it was Campuses only. Being able to -buy Amphitheatres for Hojo's cheap Theatre Squares was what finally pushed me into "ok definitely Jesuit if available". As much as I'd like Feed the World for Japan. +6 would go a long way toward the More Districts doctrine. But it would cost a bunch of to get there so I'm thinking that category probably isn't worthwhile. Most of the others aren't any good either, though there's one I'm currently angling toward as a fallback: Zen Meditation. It's not an overly powerful bonus but it comes basically for free with my pipe dream grand designs for carpeting my land with districts. Choral Music and Feed the World are still strong contenders for the #2 slot, though, if we switch gears back into "actually build Shrines & Temples".

Speaking of #2, I'm feeling very good about getting an Ancient Era Great Prophet, but getting less and less confident I'll be the first the more I read old game reports. Current spreadsheet has Holy Sites coming online on turns 33 & 34 - assuming nothing goes wrong. If I don't build a Shrine or some Prayers, that gets the GP on turn 64. Which I think is respectable though obviously not breaking any records. I need to do some more PBEM History research, right now the only benchmarks I know are oledavy getting his around turn 50 in PBEM4 and Russia getting theirs at a ludicrous turn 30 in the team game. I could go into a Shrine ASAP at Saunders (HS->Shrine) and/or Ooarai (HS->Settler->Shrine), which would finish at turns 42 and 47 respectively. Which accelerates the GP to... T57/58 or T55 w/ both. Requires giving up a fair chunk of development , though, the Sans Shrines plan calls for a Builder out of Saunders and a Trader out of Ooarai to bootstrap City 3. I'll have to check out how the cost&reward math works for the Prayers project, but that's an option too.

I dunno, I'm torn. Not sure I can afford to hard-rush the Religion with Legions next door. But at the same time, if TBS does rush religion and snaps up Jesuit... I think I'd be fine with Zen// but not sure how much that's just deluding myself


Anyway, should go over the other beliefs while we're here. Just with DotF banned there isn't much strongly compelling Especially when compounded with my fresh reluctance to build a lot of Shrines & Temples, which would make Religious Buildings fairly rare.

Buildings
 Cathedral  +3 ; 1 slot for religious art
Dar-e Mehr  +3 ; +1 additional for each era since constructed or last repaired
Gurdwara  +3 ; +2
Meeting House   +3 ; +2
Mosque  +3 ; Missionaries and Apostles +1 Spread Religion charge
Pagoda  +3 ; +1 Housing
Stupa   +3 ; +1 Amenity
Synagogue   +5
Wat   +3 ; +2

Founder
Church Property  +2 for each city following this Religion.
Cross-Cultural Dialogue   +1 for every 5 followers of this Religion in other civilizations.
Lay Ministry  Each Holy Site or Theater Square district in a city following this Religion provides +1 or +1 respectively.
Papal Primacy   Type bonuses from City-States following your Religion 50% more powerful.
Pilgrimage  +2 for every city following this Religion in other civilizations.
Religious Unity   +1 Envoy at each city-state when it first adopts this religion, in addition to any envoy from a city-state quest.
Stewardship   Each Campus or Commercial Hub district in a city following this Religion provides +1 or +1 respectively.
Tithe   +1 for every 4 followers of this Religion.
World Church  +1 for every 5 followers of this Religion in other civilizations.

Enhancer
Burial Grounds   Culture Bomb adjacent tiles when completing a Holy Site.
Crusade   Combat units gain +10 Combat Strength near foreign cities that follow this Religion.
Defender of the Faith   Combat units gain +10 Combat Strength near friendly cities that follow this Religion.
Holy Order  Missionaries and Apostles are 30% cheaper to Purchase.
Itinerant Preachers   Religion spreads to cities 30% further away.
Missionary Zeal   Religious units ignore movement costs of terrain and features.
Monastic Isolation  Your Religion's pressure never drops due to losses in Theological Combat.
Religious Colonization  Cities start with this religion in place if founded by a player who has this as their majority religion.
Scripture   Religious spread from adjacent city pressure is 25% stronger. Boosted to 50% once Printing Press is researched.

Not a whole lot that really grabs me, at least when compared to the Follower beliefs. Like I said, most of the buildings aren't worthwhile unless I build a lot of Temples. Could get some nice synergy from Feed the World+Stupa/Pagoda or from Choral Music/Wat if I lose out on Jesuit but otherwise not a heavy priority.

Similarly, can eliminate most of the Founder beliefs since I don't plan on spreading my religion outside my borders. Could be an interesting side game with Yerevan Apostles, but really it's all too easy for human players to ensure Missionaries/Apostles meet an untimely end. Papal Primacy and, to a lesser extent, Religious Unity are tempting with this game's CS rules but I don't think the CS near me are worth the effort. If we had a Militaristic/Scientific/Cultural trio then sure. But Yerevan+[Commercial] aren't worth the slot. Leaves Church Property/Tithe (I doubt either is worth an Apostle but wouldn't be a terrible initial pick, I guess) and Lay Ministry or Stewardship. The latter two also synergize nicely with More Districts but it's a fairly small bonus when you consider Japanese adjacencies.

Enhancers is kind of a grab bag. Can comfortably jettison Burial Grounds, Itinerant Preachers, and Monastic Isolation. Crusade is interesting but anti-synergizes with the Jesuit or Theocracy options. What we're left with is a collection of abilities that make it marginally easier to spread my religion to my own cities. With Sans Shrines I'll be getting City 4 settled right around when the Religion is founded, so I don't think Religious Colonization is all that tractable. More useful on a water map with, y'know, colonies. Missionary Zeal is kind of interesting but is more geared for spreading outside my borders. It's a neat trick when trying for a Religious Victory but I don't see that in the cards. Leaves 30% cheaper Missionaries&Apostles or +25% natural spread. Both are okay. Holy Order still requires diverting Jesuit but it's a lot more reliable than Scripture.

So yeah, nothing stellar. Right now if I land Jesuit Education I'm thinking pick up Church Property. Libraries and Amphitheatres cost maintenance so a bit of gold to offset that is as good as anything else. If I don't get Jesuit I have to decide whether to start on HS buildings or to pick up Zen Meditation + Lay Ministry and stick to Operation Shiroyama rushing Theocracy with a bunch of cheap Theatre Squares to -buy a bunch of Samurai to go eat someone.

[Grotsnot]

Well crap. I screwed up the combat calculator and now I'm gonna lose my Slinger. This bites.

I took the shot instead of retreating. Figured the Warrior would suicidally ding me a bit and then I could tank a shot from the Slinger. But upon reflection, noooope. Warrior is gonna clonk out a good 30 damage due to base strength and then the Slinger is gonna be able to waltz up and finish him off  At least the Warrior will die and I think I should get the Archery bonus... Can only hope the Warrior runs away or the Slinger wanders off...

Blech. I'm an idiot  Not much else on the rest of turn 19-20. Will post up some more screenshots later with scores and such.

[TheArchduke]

Ouch, sorry to see that. Keep your chin up.

[Grotsnot]

Yep. In RNGesus's hands now. Taking a hit from the Warrior at -1STR which, if my googling is correct, will do 23-40 damage. And then Slinger can come whack me at +9 or +10 which'll do 32-56 damage. So it would take improbably good luck to survive. I think my best chance at the moment is to hope that the barbs activate their Slinger before the Warrior but I'm not so sure the AI is quite that terminally stupid.

[Grotsnot]

PBEM 12 Spoilers:

Well... it could be worse Will have to learn from CMF's bad luck over there. I think I'd still have gone for early Slingers due to arrogance to get my Settler out ASAP but will have to focus more on Warriors moving forward. I already have one or two in my build plans but maybe I should try and squeeze in another couple.

And hope that the barbs lay off in PBEM 12 and instead warp over to harass Chevalier here