[No players] Big epic lurking - PB74

[Qgqqqqq]

I will say, I have no bearing on whether Commodore and others annoyance at Plemo is justified by in game actions. They report on it, and I take them at their word as to their views/motivations, but it's never caused me animus towards him. Obviously, absent reporting affects any attachment towards him, but I don't feel second hand annoyance - and have played very few pitbosses anyway.

If anything, I had the 'root for the underdog' view against Plemo for probably longer than was justified because of his early start and IMP. But I don't think that was relevant to any calls.

[Mjmd]

Thoughts on Gavs turn order question???

I get there he is coming from. You are thinking of A thing / want to check, but don't realize the implications of logging in out of turn order.

Its real awkward. My main question is why wouldn't he have scouted with his airship during his normal turn?

[RefSteel]

My main question is why wouldn't he have scouted with his airship during his normal turn?

My inference from his thread is that he did. He's saying (if I'm reading correctly) that it went like this:

1.1) Gav plays his normal turn, starting by scouting with airships.
1.2) Gav logs out.
1.3) Commodore logs in and plays his turn, including moving units into or out of areas that Gav can see due to persisting airship vision.
1.4) Commodore logs out.
1.5) Gav logs in again to check Random Thing, and something weird catches his eye: Commodore's units!

Now, when the turn rolls, if...

2.1) Gav logs in before Commodore

Then...

2.2) Gav starts by scouting with airships, sees Commodore's units in their current positions (as he already knows he will from step 5 above)
2.3) Gav declares on Commodore and attacks!

Then Gav can't prove that he moved no units during 1.5, nor that he otherwise gained no advantage from 1.5 that he wouldn't otherwise have gotten anyway during 2.2. Therefore even if/though Gav knows he has not cheated/double-moved, he can't avoid the appearance of having possibly done so.

[EDIT: I think the easiest solution would be for Gav to send Commodore a message, e.g. "Hey, I logged in to check something after we both moved, not realizing a turn-split might be needed, then only after logging in realized a turn-split would be needed, so I logged right out. Since you moved after me on Turn [whatever], I will have to move first again on Turn [whatever + 1]; sorry for causing confusion with the second login." And then on logging in to the new turn, scout with airships in exactly the way he did on the previous turn prior to taking other action. That's only easiest if Comm trusts Gav's word enough to not throw a fit about it, which ... I think is true? I'm not sure; emotions get complicated in these games, especially late in a big one like this....]

[xist10]

I say it’s unimportant what Gav did. Double turn on CF are measured with the last login.

[Mjmd]

This production graph is actually fine for Commodore. His production isn't in hammers. His bad food graph is because he has been converting food into production via Kremlin whips. 



Commodore is in an awkward 2nd place position similar to what I was in PB66. If he attacks Pin to split with Mig he would fully expect Gav to swoop in and attack him. Its even worse because so many of his cities are WAY out there so he needs to keep forces far away from potential conquests to defend his holdings. I suspect EVENTUALLY he will accumulate spare forces to take over Tarkeel or part of, but for now he has to use a significant part of his effort just to make sure Gav doesn't take anything. And once you are at the point where you know you have to defend, well it actually makes more sense with the dispersed geography to attack, which then takes 100% of your forces.

[Thoth]

If I'm reading that graph correctly it looks like Gav's post Golden Age/Industiralising production is somewhere around 2.5-3x what Commodore's production is.  Commodore will have a very difficult time in overcoming that disadvantage with whips when he is lagging behind Gav in both food and in GNP. 

 And the more Commodore whips the worse it's going to get unless he can turn his current naval advantage into some kind of productive offensive warfare.  This doesn't seem very likely to happen based on the numbers that Gav has been reporting and their relative overall military strength.  

 Unless ofc, he's managed to organize a successful dogpile and the Magic 8 ball says "Seems Unlikely". 

[scooter]

Commodore is in an awkward 2nd place position similar to what I was in PB66. If he attacks Pin to split with Mig he would fully expect Gav to swoop in and attack him. Its even worse because so many of his cities are WAY out there so he needs to keep forces far away from potential conquests to defend his holdings. I suspect EVENTUALLY he will accumulate spare forces to take over Tarkeel or part of, but for now he has to use a significant part of his effort just to make sure Gav doesn't take anything. And once you are at the point where you know you have to defend, well it actually makes more sense with the dispersed geography to attack, which then takes 100% of your forces.

This is exactly why I couldn't read that weird downer Gav post as anything other than refusal to put himself in other players shoes. As "bleak" as he felt his position was, everyone else's is bleaker! I guess the lesson is you can win Civ4 by simply having the least bleak civilization.

[Mjmd]

I'll note the other advantage Commodore has is that he doesn't have to defend his long border with Pin. At least until the moment Pin doesn't need him to slow Gav down. I got tons of mileage in PB66 leaving my Gav and Tarkeel borders pretty sparse. Where as Plemo in that game had to keep at least some forces elsewhere just to keep the other players honest. In this game Gav has to keep some forces ready in case Mig decides to get frisky.

[Qgqqqqq]

Gavagais most recent post reminds me that in his last late game, he didn't prepare for a war and folded the second he was invaded, triggering a draw. Now, late game wars are honestly exhausting, so I don't blame him, but it really seems like he doesn't have the stomach for it.

[Mjmd]

I'm jealous Commodore is getting help taking down the leader.

But ya late game wars are exhausting. There is a lot of sea to cover here as well.