Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves

[Old Harry]

WPC would probably respond well to pointing out the shortcomings in their strategy (in a kind way) and explaining how they could do a better job next time. They've been keen on our advice whenever it's been offered, so I don't think this would come across as patronising (especially if Scooter writes it).

ie:
-early war in a FFA is counterproductive,
-don't give the target time to whip,
-don't use archers to attack, etc.
I'm sure we've had a lot of other good advice in this thread over the last six months that, presented nicely would make it sound like we want them to learn, improve, stay our friends and let us have all those cities without complaint.

Alternatively get them to send a couple of chariots to accompany our stack to the tundra and finish off when we've cleared out the cities for them? I can't imagine the value of those cities to us being higher than a WPC who see we did everything possible to help them...

fake edit: I like ASMs suggestion about mentioning the German carve-up too. But save it for if they get arsey.

[antisocialmunky]

We also should take into consideration any future intersite games and the diplo ramifications onto those games. Will those tundra cities really help us that much? Throwing WPC two cities, or maybe three, should be fine, along with the reminder that ASM just pointed out.

Like I said, its all up to WPC at this point. Its basically up to them how well this turns out for them.

In my opinion, future ISDG rammifications shouldn't factor into it much unless we are blatantly cheating or breaking diplomatic stuff. ISDG seem to be dictated more by internal circumstances. Plus I suppose, we could do the ultimate Locke/Cervantes and set up a fake Civ Site that's no one has heard up (I would go for a South African or Mexican site).

[pindicator]

Sullla, I don't think anybody wants to be nice to WPC out of guilt.  It's more of a realpolitik way of looking at the situation.  How much would a happy WPC benefit us vs a mildly displeased WPC vs a vehemently upset WPC?  And how many cities would that difference be worth?  Nobody here feels sorry for that team.  They've gotten exactly what they deserved this game, due to bad strategic and tactical play.

But how much damage could a WPC team do diplomatically if they're telling everybody that we agreed to split Germany and then we ended up with all of it?  We've been telling everybody how we're different than the rules lawyers at CFC, but this could make us look a lot like CFC in other teams' eyes.

Maybe the answer is it isn't worth one city and we take everything then say sorry to WPC.  We won't be making scooter's job easier, but that's what we have to decide.  But if we don't think those cities are going to be as great an influence to us winning as some good PR then perhaps we can give them something.

Another option that hasn't been brought up:  we could conquer the german cities to eliminate that civ quickly, and then let WPC declare on us to capture whatever their split should be.  Again, IF we decide they should get anything.


Also Scooter - does our NAP with WPC end on turn 200?

[novice]

I don't think how we treat WPC is going to influence our diplo with other teams one iota, so that's not worth giving up cities for. Diplo will be decided by geopolitics, not by the complaints of a dying civ.

[Cyneheard]

I don't like a phony war to get around city gifting. That's rules lawyering at its worst. Raze and let them resettle is preferable.

[pindicator]

I don't think how we treat WPC is going to influence our diplo with other teams one iota, so that's not worth giving up cities for. Diplo will be decided by geopolitics, not by the complaints of a dying civ.

If that's the case then i say we take everything

[pindicator]

what about offering WPC other things as "recompense" for cities?  I use quotes because I'm trying to think of things that are low cost for us but WPC may still see as beneficial enough to smooth things over:

1) Extra resources
2) Excess military
3) Gold  Just kidding.
4) Other non-tangible help

Extra resources are the easiest to give out, especially if we have enough excess that trades are unlikely to happen.  As I've seen it, resource trades aren't really happening anyway, so those extra resoures aren't doing anything for us right now.

Military may be tricky, but it depends on what we have after the German war.  We've been saying how maces are largely useless for us to continue to produce; would we also have an excess after the war?  We wouldn't want to give them too much to be a threat, but we really can't put a number on that until after the German war ends.

[Ruff_Hi]

From WePlayCiv:

Hi Scooter.

It would appear that the Germans are pulling a last ditch Kamikaze move on us. Check out the picture.

As allies, what we would apppreciate, is that you take the remaining German cities (ie the ones that were slated for us).

You keep the gold you get from them, and any workers you capture. When all this is over, you gift the captured cities to us. Or sooner if it is a matter of maintenance costs for you.

As we discussed at the start of the war, the scenario we are facing was a possibility. So, we will play it out and take on the fury of the Incan hostility. I gather they did not know of our prior agreement, and it is probably best that they don't. We can handle them better on defence.

Does this sound Ok?

Cheers! Beta of WPC

ps on the pic:

A: Warendorf: 2 war elephants, 3 horse archers, 2 longbows, 1 axe, 1 chariot

B: 1 war elephant, 1 longbow, 6 catapults, 2 axe and 2 workers

C: 7 war elephants, 2 horse archers, 1 longbow, 2 cats, 1 chariot, 1 spear, 1 worker, 1 quechua

Appologies if this isn't new, still catching up on the thread.

I don't think that WPC are worried about their german cities anymore. They should be worried about Huron River. Two combat workers will put a large stack right on their doorstep.

[kjn]

I doubt the remaining four German cities will have any real impact on whether we can win the game via space or otherwise. We'd have been happy with the south and west of the German lands, and now we've picked up quite a bit of the north and east as well, so I see no reason why we can't be happy with the cities we've already picked up.

The primary consideration right now is to end the German war as quickly as possible.

I think keeping good relations with WPC going forward can be quite valuable. A guaranteed OB partner is good, as is the possibility of them picking up dogpile brewing against us, as is having a secure border.

On the other hand, a weak and incompetent ally will be a liability in a war - witness Italy in WW2, or South Vietnam.

On the third hand, I had a shitty feeling after we turned against the Germans, and turning against WPC would feel even more shitty.

Then we have the fact that if we try to assist WPC chariots in taking the two remote German cities, then they must have those chariots near the front, and follow our lead - and then we're back to making them feel inferior to us.

Damned if we do, damned if we don't...

[Speaker]

Plus I suppose, we could do the ultimate Locke/Cervantes and set up a fake Civ Site that's no one has heard up (I would go for a South African or Mexican site).