Werewolf 7 game thread

[Mr. Nice Guy]

And Catwalk's summary. By the way, I'm combining small or linked posts into one bullet. So the number of posts won't match the number of bullets. Same thing with Erebus earlier.

1. Mayor=Meiz. Lynch = MNG for my first post. Both are sensible votes, not much to glean from them.
   
2. Limit post count?
   
3. Votes uberfish.
   
4. Wants to keep voting uberfish
   
5. Wants to keep voting uberfish but is in favor of discussing other suspects.*
   
6. Wants to keep vote on uberfish, because it's obviously a wolf ploy.
   
7. Accepts that uberfish bandwagon is dying, so moves vote to Injera for believing uberfish must be a villager ploy.
   
8. Moves vote back to uberfish, after considering the lack of a seer. ... Cautions that for the same reason, mayor uberfish is a very bad idea.
   
9. Still thinks that uberfish is a wolf play. Confronts uberfish directly on it, and asks him directly if he has ever done something similar.
   
10. Mayor vote (in red) to zakalwe.
    
11. Fixes the mistake.
    
12. Corrects uberfish: I suspect you for being wolfish.
    
13. Asks Roland about past wolf uberfish.
    
14. Doesn't like mayor choices, but begrudgingly votes Serdoa to give wolves less opportunity for winning the race.
    
15. Explains that he doesn't want too much attention in this game (just like last time when he was baner) but wants to push uber because he believes in it.
    
16. [QUOTE=I don't think a day 1 mislynch needs any considerable amount of justification. It's a guess based on small leads. If it's wrong, so be it. I firmly believe he's our best bet with what we have to go on, and I'm glad the votes changed. If he's innocent, we may still gain some information from voting patterns and compare with who else may have been under fire. [/quote]*
    
17. Post lynch post. Stands by the uberfish vote. Comments on people's guilt/innocence. Like Erebus, skips me. Actually just comments on three innocents (Serdoa, zak, Meiz) and three guilties (scooter, Injera, Roland)
    
18. Trying to incite something between zak and Roland... and more specifically get Roland pissed off at zak.
    
19. Doesn't like voting off for being quiet, but Injera trips his radar so he adds a vote.
    
20. Injera has now given him villager vibes, so he "parrots zakalwe" and votes against Erebus
    
21. Responds to Roland's posts, claims inexperience with this format.
    

*For someone that had just wanted to limit post count, Catwalk sure did a lot of talking after uberfish.
*This seems like Catwalk's hedging his bets, backing down after being so sure for a dozen or so posts.

And that's it.
----------
So Erebus was noisy day one, and has posted a lot of no-content today. Same thing with Catwalk. They have both become more suspicious today.

Catwalk, though, has flip-flopped a lot today after being passionate about eliminating uberfish. Upon closer examination he really doesn't look like himself from the last game, but does look like someone who would rather blend in. He did hedge his bets a bit. And perhaps most damning, he's tried to incite arguments between Roland and zakalwe.

Primarily for those reasons, I'm going to put my vote on Catwalk.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Erebus... I'm torn on. He's somewhat tough to read, despite how I think he is making an effort. I think his latest stunt - and the one that's landed him in hot water - has actually showcased his innocence more than his guilt, but that's a gut feeling and it's about 52% innocent / 48% guilty. I get the feeling he's a newbie Villager who panicked at the first sign of real pressure, and because of that he's got a tough road to travel in order to convince some of our more... tenacious players that he's not a 'Wolf. I could go either way on him, but as I said for the moment he's ringing more innocent than guilty (shades of uberfish's situation abound), and seeing how quickly he's risen to the top of people's suspect list I'm inclined to buck the trend and focus my efforts elsewhere.

I get where you're coming from here, but he also reminds me of someone else:
Me.
In Werewolf 4, as an inexperienced, scared werewolf.

[Catwalk]

I have to say on my first read through of the day I'm quite frustrated. I'm frustrated at the lack of interaction - there's been a lot of little punches at people that are just getting ignored. That's smart wolf play if you can get away with it, but usually as a village we've been smart enough to not let folks get away with it. This time someone raises a point on someone else, the attackee either says nothing at all or posts some brief blase defense and nobody talks about it. Again, I'm not interested in antagonizing everyone but if we lose this we're going to hear its because we have no seer, and I think its because for some reason this village isn't trying very hard.

I'm quite frustrated that Serdoa keeps calling me wolfish for no reason whatsoever. At least Meiz and Roland had something when they poked at me - and I don't mind being poked at - we all need to be poked a little to get to the truth. But Serdoa's accusations seem solely to be "He doesn't have this all figured out yet and he should, so he must be a wolf." How the hell can anyone figure this all out with the low information in the thread?

While your post makes sense, your reaction to Serdoa puzzles me a little. First you say that people aren't trying hard enough to follow up leads, then you get frustrated with Serdoa for accusing you on vague grounds. Then immediately after, you state that it's hard to know much with an overall low information level in the game. That being the case, shouldn't you be a little more tolerant of his accusations as noone has much to go on? In general, I feel that reacting emotionally to an accusation (yours isn't the biggest example of that, mind) is more suspicious than simply addressing the accusation. It can be a matter of playing style, but if all villagers react emotionally to accusations it makes us harder for all of us. Wolves can blend in more easily that way, if all were to address accusations in a calm manner wolves would likely stand out more IMO.

Overall, I have to say I'm not impressed with our top lynch candidates here. Two of my top suspects are currently in the bottom three of the tallies, so let's do something about that, shall we?

Catwalk

Maybe it will tell me if Catwalk really is a 'Wolf. At the very least it's a better option than zakalwe and Jkaen.

This puzzles me a bit. I addressed all your concerns, you seem to want more information but bring nothing to the table. Safe vote?

Another thing i'm finding pretty strange is some of Catwalk posts. They are not particularly wolfish, but let me show an example, with the bolded parts more important:
...
(comments about Meiz and zakalwe concerning the mayor election)
...
I found this directing of comments to be strange. Maybe it's a different playing style, which I can respect, but why always the same people? Why make a separate group from the rest of the players? It has a weird tone about it. I can understand that people get well with each other outside of the game, but taking this to the game is not good. It's another thing that can lead to a wolf being made into a "confirmed innocent".

Upon reading through the thread, I've noticed several players addressing comments specifically at one or more players. I'm not sure if I started a trend, but I see it being pretty common. As for those comments, I clearly wanted someone other than Serdoa for mayor (I've since retracted that in my response to Roland). zakalwe stated that he was willing to run for mayor, and I felt that I had some pull with Meiz. Serdoa pointed out that my plan was unwise because scattered votes meant the wolves would almost certainly get it, so I went along with Serdoa.[/quote]

And Catwalk's summary. By the way, I'm combining small or linked posts into one bullet. So the number of posts won't match the number of bullets. Same thing with Erebus earlier.

[*]Corrects uberfish: I suspect you for being wolfish.

[*]Explains that he doesn't want too much attention in this game (just like last time when he was baner) but wants to push uber because he believes in it.[/quote]
Not quite sure what you mean by these, please elaborate.

[*]Trying to incite something between zak and Roland... and more specifically get Roland pissed off at zak.

I saw what seemed like a suspicious reaction by Roland towards zakalwe (first saying he's ready to get confrontational out the ass, then shortly afterwards backing off completely). It was just an observation between two players, I think it's bit over the top to say I was inciting something. If I had known much about past histories of players, then yes. Roland's response seemed plausible to me and matches his playing style well.

[*]Doesn't like voting off for being quiet, but Injera trips his radar so he adds a vote.

I'd like to clarify this one. I also specified in that post that semi activity was a good place for wolves to hide, and that there was no way around having to suspect players based on low activity. I mostly agreed with Serdoa's sentiments about this (going for low activity players), although I only wanted to do it for one player right now for tactical reasons (having little else to go on still) rather than one by one to send a signal (too crass for me).

*For someone that had just wanted to limit post count, Catwalk sure did a lot of talking after uberfish.

Are you talking about day 2 posts? I'd say my activity has been pretty average. I had 24 posts after day 1 (saved all posts counts in a text file), and I have 30 now. If you're talking about day 1, I did a lot of talking because I felt I had a suspicion worth pursuing. Right now I don't. I tried to come up with new theories and was told off for it.

*This seems like Catwalk's hedging his bets, backing down after being so sure for a dozen or so posts.

I don't think I was "so sure", and it was in fact only a handful of posts. I backed down because my theories weren't as factually rooted as I thought.

Catwalk, though, has flip-flopped a lot today after being passionate about eliminating uberfish. Upon closer examination he really doesn't look like himself from the last game, but does look like someone who would rather blend in. He did hedge his bets a bit. And perhaps most damning, he's tried to incite arguments between Roland and zakalwe.

Primarily for those reasons, I'm going to put my vote on Catwalk.

In WW6 I was passionate about terminating the bandwagon on Selrahc (who did turn out to be innocent) and kept pursuing that as fiercely as I pursued uberfish this game. I also kept a lower profile after that, similar to this game. After pushing to lynch a villager you inevitably either come off as a wolf or a clueless villager, so I didn't find it wise to keep sticking my neck out. So I'm observing, trying to help and trying to stay alive. This may be newbie play, but by staying alive I save the town a mislynch and I think I'm decent at identifying innocents. That's what I'm working most on now, and I think I'll try to refrain from making lists for the reasons stated earlier by someone (causing groupthink).

[Injera]

Well, I got back home and couldn't resist checking the thread, and saw your post MNG and figured I should responding to it. Now I see how this game can be such a time sink.

First off, thanks for taking the time to actually state the case, as it's nice to at least have something to respond to.

The trend of wolf-like behavior has gone all through the game. Here are some examples of Injera connecting dots, hedging bets, and not being specific with his claims...

To this general point, I think Gaspar read things perfectly when he said that it took some early pressure let my "full personality" come through. I'm still in the process of finding my voice in this game.

To address your points:

I felt uberfish's claim was preposterous on its face; I called it an "obvious joke" though "obviously not serious" might have been a better description. As I said at the time, if he was being honest that he wanted to die the game was essentially a farce anyway. He would need to be an absolute jerk to wreck a game like that. My feeling at the time was that anyone taking it straight was probably looking to damage him or being incredibly short-sighted. And I thoght zakalwe would be too smart to be that short-sighted. That's why I took the position I did.

The move to a no vote was a completely honest move. I had started skimming the posts I had missed overnight, and I got to the point where I realized that one of the two other people on zakalwe, Rowain, really had no meaningful argument. Then scooter moved on him, but zakalwe was defended (vigorously) by several villagers. I didn't feel confident on my vote on zakalwe anymore so I moved to a no vote. I didn't think it would even elicit a reaction.

As to the comment that despite my vote I felt zakalwe was probably a villager, I meant it completely. I wasn't looking to minimize my guilt, I was just trying to provide an assessment of my feelings. Crucially, I never waivered from saying that zakalwe was my top suspect. I guess I was too honest.

Now, you quote this post from me:

At this point I don't see a reason to move my vote around as it appears it won't matter, though we still have some time left. For the record, my suspects right now are Zak/Catwalk (both of these drop off with a guilty 'fish), Lewwyn (doesn't seem to be contributing much, just following other voters around), TT (a variety of reasons.)

Okay, so now we have a list of suspects. But you've given yourself an out in every case in case you're wrong... and you've already shown to be wrong on one of them.

Look, this is just nonsense on a whole number of levels. First of all, I don't provide a single "out" on any of my suspects. As you can see from the context of the post, I believe an uberfish lynch is imminent and I'm saying that should he be found a wolf I'll scratch Zak and Cat off my list. That's not attempting to run from a mislynch- my votes not on uber- it's simply stating how my views will change depending on the outcome of uberfish's guilt. I'm not providing any cover for myself for a zakalwe/Cat lynch; that's not even a possibility at the time of the post and nothing in there says, "Well, if zak gets lynched don't blame me!"- unlike zakalwe who pretty much stated that with regards to uberfish. As for Lewwyn and TT I can't possibly fathom how you would read those descriptions as me attempting to form some sort of cover for myself. So actually, no, I haven't given myself an out in any of the cases listed.

And yes, I was wrong on Lewwyn, but I think I characterized his behavior correctly. It made him, in my mind, suspicious. Call it a gut feeling, but I'd wager not all of the 5+ suspects you've listed today will turn out to be wolves. :neenernee

From the tone of your early posts, I'd expect you to be more firm in your beliefs...

Wait, so you are accusing me a pattern of "connecting dots, hedging bets, and not being specific with [my] claims," and then saying the post above is striking because it's inconsistent with my prior behavior? Maybe there's some semantic difference in tone I'm missing here but this seems like a complete non-sequitur. You think I'm consistently hedging my bets, as evidenced by a post where you think I'm hedging my bets in contrast to my prior history of being firm in my beliefs? Really?

And "a variety of reasons" doesn't cut it in these games...

Once again, from the context you can tell at this point the vote was set and I wasn't attempting to sway anyone. I was just getting my suspect list out before the end of the day. If you felt at the time you wanted more information why not just ask, "Hey Injera, what are your reasons for suspecting TT?" I would have responded!

The short version is: 1) like my top suspect, he jumped on uberfish right away, and 2) he was the person benefiting the most from the the uberfish lynch.

To me, this feels like an opportunity that a wolf just couldn't waste. After careful consideration, Erebus seems like he really was just a panicky villager. But Injera comes off as an opportunistic wolf smelling blood.

Well, if I was out for blood I probably would have voted for him, or at least not followed it up with this:

One final thing: I see a lot of votes going Erebus's way. While I'm quite suspicious of his post binge there, I think it would be really bad if we let Day 2 turn into a landslide like Day 1, only to find ourselves with a panicky villager with rope burns.

Erebus's posts are suspicious; there's clearly an element of panic involved. More people are going to react with fear at the prospect of being lynched as a wolf than as villager, as many of the true villagers will instead show some righteous indignation. It doesn't mean he's a wolf and it doesn't mean he's a villager either, but it's something worth noting and worthy of suspicion. It certainly hasn't put him at the top of my list, though.

[Injera]

Also, one last thing before bed (and football tomorrow!): your summaries on Erebus and Catwalk are really excellent MNG, and I can tell they took a lot of work.

Thanks.

[Meiz]

Meiz said that one of his comments, post 176, was a joke.

As a reference, here is my answer to your question: http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...post177656
I feel like I already answered to a lot your points, but maybe the answers were not satisfactory

What I understand from this post is that Meiz wants both scooter and TT to keep on the block. So, I think he suspected both of them.

Yes, but the suspicion against scooter was nothing solid, just hunches because of his low contributions (IMO).

I think is best if everyone read the sequence of posts, because the context is very important. I think Meiz started suspecting scooter when the bandwagon formed. He received 3 votes quickly, including one from Serdoa and zakalwe. The first post quoted is Meiz reaction to scooter voting in Zakalwe. The second is Meiz reaction after scooter switched to a no vote, after giving his reasons. In both posts, Meiz seemed to be taunting scooter, in my eyes. But the bandwagon faded after scooter no vote, because the scooter voters were content with his explanations. Meiz second posted quote leads me to believe that he wasn't.

Yep, I was taunting him a bit and voicing my displease to his answers. But again my suspicions were not even nearly solid at all.

After the Uber bandwagon, Meiz focus completely switched from scooter. Coincidentally, the same people led the bandwagons against scooter and Uber, which made Meiz comment on both occasions. It seems strange to me, because he seemed to be the only one insatisfied with scooter response, but few posts later he forgot about scooter, changing his target to the same target that the leaders of the scooter bandwagon looked to. This is a big inconsistency, in my eyes.

TT was on the block, uberfish was on the block. Both were acting suspiciously. I had not have time to re-read the thread a second time (was left on page 15) and the only third suspect I found was Lewwyn. So I simply had better targets than scooter on day 1 and didn't see much reason to bring a fourth candidate just because of a hunch I can't pinpoint to.

Now, on day 2, Meiz made a case against scooter, with some good arguments. But he left TT out.

Left TT out?

[Erebus]

Well I'm home, posting a bit before heading to bed.

I've tried defending myself, and everytime I do I apparently dig myself into a deeper hole, so I'll move on.

6. Comments on bad vigilantes, and votes on JKaen for not behaving as Erebus would have expected, and being quiet. Assumes that Rowain was the vig-target. That gets him suspected, but even on the re-read I have trouble catching how suspicious that comment was.

I don't really care about Jkaen's activity, I care about what he said when he had a chance to be active.

I have read to this point, and so no real need to change my votes at this time.

Just as a FYI, when I read uberfishes post I chuckled and moved on and was shocked that people were actually taking it serious

Jumped on again at the pub.

Still find TT suspicious, but my worry now especially with no seer is we will have this uberfish trick hanging over us for ever. If he is a villager the wolves would be crazy to eat him, and we have no other way of clearing his name.

If we end up lynching him it doesn't really tell us much. I believe TT would react like that even if he (TT) was a villager and zak has the excuse of the strange play to all back on so we can't conclude anything.

If uberfish is a wolf, it helps zaks case slightly, but there is so much time for him to flip vote again it doesn't make him at all safe to me.

Typing this out I have become less convinced of TT's guilt. It was far too headstrong and OTT, but playing in 2 games with him I don't think its that out of character.

I think annoyingly we have no choice but to clear this uberfish cloud hanging over us and allow more discussions to develop that we can draw better conclusions from. Uber, sorry if you are innocent, if you had stated it was all a joke I may have hoped we could move on, but I fear you are now too easy a place to hide

These were #2 and #3 of his posts. He went from being surprised that people were taking uberfish serious to taking this all very seriously. This seemed very wolfish, and it stands out for him more so because of the few posts.

We were worried that wolves would ignore a village uberfish and then BW on him if they got the chance. Jkaen jumped on this bandwagon pretty smoothly with no one questioning him why.

That's why I voted him.

My issues with Catwalk are two fold, 1) He seems to trying to live in Zakalwe's shadow. Here's something fun, go through each of Catwalk's post and if you have a newer browser and hit ctrl+F type in Zakalwe in the find field and hit highlight all. 8 of the 10 posts I checked on Catwalk had him mentioning Zakalwe at least 3 times, that's only counting BY NAME. You all talk about Zakalwe's ego and tunnel vision, shouldn't you be more concerned about someone sitting by himself and helping to convince him he's always right?

2) The post where I noticed his defensive nature was Post 428. Towards the end of the post he seemed to be overly apologetic towards Roland, only maintaining his belief that Uberfish was a legit lynch and Zakalwe is innocent, pretty much his only two tangible arguments he's made.

Another issue I'm having, is that the votes on me look a hell of a lot like the bandwagon that formed on Uberfish at the end of the day one.

Catwalk was settled on uberfish pretty much the whole time, Zakalwe jumps on, followed by Scooter and a few votes later Sareln.

The other issue, is the only reason I'm at the top of the list is the selective reading that people have had.

I agree that Rowain was probably the vigi target as more people were suspect of him then they were of Lewwyn. Vigilantes in general are gambles, the right player can be devastating with them, otherwise they are a huge liability.

Wondering who I agree with? Must be myself, maybe I'm a schizophrenic wolf? In that case I claim I didn't know. :neenernee

I thought Scooter did this elsewhere, but it was the other way around of Meiz attacking him but not Serdoa.

However, Serdoa and Scooter both blast me in posts for how dumb my Rowain was vig-target accusation, even though it was only a few posts after Zakalwe said the same thing.

I suspect Scooter saw a chance to put suspicion on me, but didn't want to go up against the seemingly bulletproof Zakalwe. And then jumps after my defense to sow confusion.

Someone mentioned that if I hang and am a villager they'd suspect Zakalwe (an unvillager like sentiment to say the least). However, I'd like to request if I'm proven villager take a hard look at Scooter.

[Meiz]

He does post stuff which READS villager but it doesn't FEEL villager. I am not good to explain that, but basically - and I wonder how Meiz feels about it as he knows it from last game as well

Many already commented to this, but as you asked my opinion in specific: He feels villager to me. Personally I'm finding a lot of his observations, points and messages very useful. I get a feeling he is once again doing his best to find wolves. He is one of the big talkers, so even if you suspect him, IMO there are far more better targets out there for day 2. He's not going to stop talking and as a wolf it would be unlikely for him not to screw up at some point.

I don't think Meiz will ever notice a wolf zakalwe or Serdoa without a scry. Not sure if he really wants the two of them to like him or if he really just tends to agree with them so heavily, but its been pretty obvious to me these last 3 games.

Part of it's because I agree with Zakalwe a lot (but usually not with Serdoa that often). Bigger part is that these two have so open style to play that I see it quite impossible task to fake as a wolf. Same thing with Roland. I've seen Zakalwe as a wolf and Serdoa as a possessed, and both times the styles were drastically different.

---

Gaspar has continued to provide good posts and I'm getting more confident of the idea of him being on the villager side. Same thing with Injera. My preferred lynch order for the day is at the moment: 1. Scooter 2. TT 3. Erebus 4. Sareln

I should have time to contribute in more detail later

[Meiz]

Crossposted with Erebus.

Getting tempted to change his name with Jkaen

[Meiz]

One more thing. The reason I was tempted to join scooter bandwagon was to get him to talk, so he has to take the threat seriously. I'm a firm believer of this tactic, basically the same thing as Gaspar is urging us to do. But I don't agree the part of dogpiling on people you think as innocent just to get more out of them. First of all I think it just makes your own play more suspicious and causes unnecessary confusion for the village. For reference see WW3 and my night time novice comments. It's not the same situation as suggested here, but I painted suspicion against novice by purpose, because I thought of him as PR and wanted him kept alive. Later in the game, my credibility was not that good partly because of this and no one believed me anymore, even after I managed to identify 3 last wolves and was urging everyone to vote them.

For example scooter has mostly just ignored my accusations because I'm the only one voting him. If you want to get more out of him, he needs to feel the heat.