Realms Beyond Werewolf 2 : Game Thread

[Sareln]

This is my first ever WW game, but I can't imagine people usually talk this much.

In the face-to-face games I've played they usually don't. The game becomes more a psych-play and reading the physical tells of the other players. However, the forum is a very different medium for it. With the written word, players can analyze over-and-over again before hitting post, scrubbing out tells and other slips. Sometimes players still slip, but much less often than in face-to-face.

[Selrahc]

In the night, Roland's lie about me being "Scried as the Devil" was revealed to be false by the narrator.
So now I'm being accused of being the Devil based on a conveniently secret Owl?
With the rather flimsy additional evidence that I have viewed Fire and Ice's profile. Which isn't even necessary to send PMs.

I've got to say, that sounds more and more desperate and insane.
He screwed up by calling me the Devil. He is blustering to get out of it.

[Kyan]

Selrahc- i expected better. At least pretend to be the baner...

After Roland's initial claim, Selrahc was well aware that the only way the villagers could know this is if a secret role was around. Remember way back when, fire and ice was referring to multiple secret roles. We were also complaining that there were too many wolves. The Owl was f&i's solution to this.

Selrahc is an old hand at werewolf/mafia games, don't let his bluster win you through and stop you lynching the devil. He was so confident in his abilities that he instantly worked out a secret role must have been involved in his revealing. Look at the first post in his defence where he uses a throwaway comment that the villagers are bound to 'fall back on secret roles nonsense'. He's trying to belittle the counter because he knows it to be the truth.

The guy is caught, literally red-handed and he knows it. To be fair, Selrahc hasn't done a lot wrong. He's played the devil role well (what else do you expect from a vet?) and we, as a village, got lucky. The scry was immensely fortunate.

Better to be lucky than good!

[Irgy]

Well, that's certainly some sort of explanation. A seemingly ridiculous one at first read, but an explanation. Let me just get this straight. The easiest way is via confirming the cast of characters:

Roland - Self appointed conspiracy leader, sacrificial lamb and diligent verbal bricklayer.

Mr O - The mysterious "Owl" character a secret role the likes of which the world has never seen (I can't find anything from a fairly long google search anyway) and the workings of which remain a mystery.

Selrahc - Seen visiting someone during the night, who wasn't killed (so not a wolf visit). Could be the seer but hasn't claimed to be. Which leaves the devil, or maybe yet another secret role (that also wasn't claimed)?

Gaspar - Self claimed town Jackass, co-conspirator.

Kyan - Self claimed mason, a role now almost completely meaningless. Although it's amusing that by simply having a name, it is still of value to the villagers, as he can claim it, and were lying limited to wolves I'd say no-one but a wolf would dispute it. It makes me think of a new role, the "zzazubar", who has no powers whatsoever, but has a name for people to claim.

Sunrise - Who was allegedly visited by Selrahc, and otherwise has no relevance to the story so far. Why exactly has he been named again?

Somewhere out there is also the seer, the role who's actually supposed to be verifying wolves. Who thankfully had the sense not to speak up against Roland's now admittedly false claim. With both a seer and this owl pseudo-seer I tell you what, if we don't win this we're going to look like damn fools.

Have I got it right, or am I just even more confused?

There's holes in this story big enough to drive a truck through. However, Selrahc's defense has been half-hearted at best. He hasn't claimed to be the seer himself and has frankly missed the boat on that by now.

So my vote is still going to Selrahc. As far as I can figure out, there's two possible outcomes:
* This is all a ridiculous wolf plot. If so, Selrahc will show up as villager, which is bad, but the good news is we suddenly have a lot of information to track down the culprits.
* It's a wolf plot, but one that's also selling out Selrahc. Would explain his weak defence. No harm in voting for him in this case regardless.
* It's all, true, or something close to true.

Either way he's a good candidate. Sorry Selrahc, but if you're not a wolf someone out there really doesn't like you.

[Irgy]

^ By which I meant three possible outcomes...

[Rowain]

A lot to read through and contrary to yesterday a lot to digest.

But there are things I don’t like. I trusted Roland yesterday to save Gaspar but today I suspect Roland to have played me and most likely Luddite, Kyan and others as well.

So why do I think so:

Roland claims to be the seer but reveals that Selrahc is the Devil which the Seer can’t know!! What a slip by someone who writes long essays anaylizing every little bit and has with his convincing way initiated 2 lynches. Now read this bit about Gaspar:

I took a chance with Gaspar. No reason, just blind intuition. It paid off. We nailed a 'Wolf. I couldn't keep it up, though - not without being sure. So I scried him that night, and found him to be a Villager.

Add this: from MJW: Roland said in a PM that he was the seer some time ago.

So posts to claim the seer-job but later revealing that he did not scan Selrahc. It leaves the question whom had he scanned?

2nd part: Luddite was killed. My dear Mason friend, with me since Day 1, had been taken from me.

Luddite was killed yes. His Mason friend from Day1. Don’t you wonder how the wolves got so lucky to kill a Mason so soon?

Now Kyan comes and claims the second Mason role and states that he + Luddite trusted Roland and Gaspar . Now I wonder why. How did they get prove that Roland was what he claimed to be?

I guess haphazard has hit it:
So we have Roland claiming to be the Seer, and Kyan claiming to be the other Mason. And somehow they knew each others' roles and have been working together since Day 1.

Very strange indeed.


After f&I reveals that a real Seer does NOT get the Devil-information and Roland plunges into another essay with very interesting points:

Luddite was the one who found the secret role called the Owl. He was not among my contacts, so I didn't get the chance to do it myself. That's beside the point. Anyway, last night the Owl followed Selrahc on a hunch (his own). Selrahc visited someone other than Luddite - a confirmed Werewolf kill, and now a known Mason - thus we know he is either the Devil or the Seer.

I thought roland is the seer so how comes there is any doubt about Selrahc’s role? Additional we might have a fool too!! But it comes even better:
We contacted the other person - Sunrise089, someone we already were working on bringing in to the Network - and he agreed to this plan. The ORIGINAL plan was to keep the power roles protected - including the Masons, whom I've been deeply guarding since the beginning

Let us think about this a bit: We have the 2 Masons who without any knowledge trust Roland.
1 Masons discovers the role of the Owl How that?
And especially How did the Owl know whom to contact?
And they were already working with sunrise089. Not to be blunt but trusting someone who has extremly little posts, was out of contact for the most time and had so little time for the game that he thought Meiz was against the screening of MJW when in reality he was all for it (and got called a WW for it)? Really? So trusting are we?

But also to note. Look at what he did right here: He revealed the existence of the Owl which, as much as I understand it, is a very powerfull role for the villagers which would best be kept secret and now Roland simple reveals its existence because he has botched up. The Seer/Devil story. Yeah very likely.

[Rowain]

Now were does all that leave us. Do I believe Selrahc to be the Devil:
Yes, I think he has to be else the whole ploy won’t work. What ploy do you ask: Well Rolands of course. What would he gain? He would become absolutly trusted by the villagers! The perfect position for a wolf. Would it be worth sacrificing the Devil? Yes because thanks to his network he knows so much: He knows about the owl role (and most likely who it is) he knows the second Mason (Kyan) and he is everybodys darling. As he pointed out he made the network in a way that he is the Nexus. Every single thread of knowledge runs to him as speaker of the Masons.

Look at the history: He enters stage with huge essays against sandover. This earns him trust as sandover is revealed to be a wolf but : He switched off him! Now Gaspar (trustworthy Gaspar who simply states Meiz is a wolf and I give you no reasons why I think so) claims that the switch was a ruse to catch wolves. Now this might even be true for Gaspars time of switching but Roland switched extremly late so he knew MJW was save (his own words) so why switch at that point??
Now he has gained trust so we lynch a villager on Day 2. Without any reasons given. Roland himself calls most of the evidence circumstantial in his first post vs Meiz. Now lynching an villager is bound to happen but far more important is the Night-kill: A Mason is killed. I have spend some time to read though Luddite’s posts and I can't see anything that would reveal his role to anybody. I myself thought Roland & Gaspar were the Masons and that that was the reason why Roland defended Gaspar and asked me to switch from him.
So lucky wolfs except Luddite did reveal himself to someone he could not be sure to be not a wolf....
Now didn’t Roland express deep sadness about the death of Meiz and Luddite? Yes he did but this is a Forum. We have no Bodylanguage no Face to devine the real feelings we have only words. Ever read a good book? A skilled writer can make you feel with his charakters so no wonder Roland can come over as really depressed.
So on with Day3: Day 2 was a narrow safe for Gaspar. If today the same pressure is build (and Haphazard has started it ) Gaspar is very likely to be lynched. And if Gaspar falls Roland might be very suspect too. So lets make it count: Lets lynch the Devil and afterwards nobody will ever question Roland & Gaspar again.



Now I have no problem with gifted Horses so as long no new revelations come up lets kill Selrahc today and proceed with Gaspar, Roland for the next 2 days. That will bring us to 4 dead wolves in 5 days which is tremendous nice. For the last 2 hmm uberfish, Serdoa maybe sunrise sounds good but we will cross that bridge when we come to it.

[uberfish]

I have evidence that Sunrise is the seer. I was going to keep this quiet in order not to out him, but Roland told everyone anyway. So I might as well confirm Sunrise.

1) We chatted twice on day 2. First on saturday when I posted that he was involuntary AFK. He asked me to post this, a short while later he said something like "actually maybe I'll just lie and say I was not AFK and deliberately lurking the whole time." I thought this was weird, filed it away for later, and posted that he was AFK. I kept my vote on Sunrise a while longer because I felt that wanting to lie about his AFK was suspicious.

2) Secondly after Selrahc's wolf slip post. We discussed Selrahc and agreed he was suspicious. I didn't know Sunrise was the seer at this time. I told Sunrise that I wasn't going to vote for Meiz, and if my Gaspar->Roland theory didn't check out I'd pull off him. Sunrise said "don't vote for me". I told him I was going to vote for Selrahc and did so. Sunrise voted for Meiz but went off and scanned Selrahc.

3) Then we chatted on day 3 after Ug accused me of being a wolf. Sunrise told me "why don't you just post that Selrahc is a wolf and to lynch you if you're wrong." Again I was curious why he seemed so confident about Selrahc and I wondered if maybe he wanted to get Selrahc lynched and blame me for it. Then he asked me if I thought Roland was a villager, and I pointed him to one of my posts explaining my reasoning. At this point I realised that he was probably the seer, had scanned Selrahc and knew he was guilty, and was therefore looking for a mouthpiece.

A wolf wouldn't have needed a second opinion on Roland. Therefore Sunrise is the seer.

Sunrise can confirm all this. I was going to make a fairly long post accusing Selrahc based on non-seer evidence to try and protect Sunrise. Roland crossposted and interrupted me halfway.


BTW if there's someone else with a Seer PM out there: You need to claim now so we can resolve the issue of whether there's a Fool or not.

[Irgy]

So, um, why are you telling everyone, including the wolves, about it?

I suppose if Selrahc is the devil and whoever claims to be the owl is really the owl and Selrahc really was visiting then the wolves presumably know already. But if any piece of that chain of assumptions is false, then you've possibly just made a bad situation worse. Assuming you're right anyway.

What the hey is going on with this town?

[Lewwyn]

It doesn't matter if Sunrise was "outed" or not in this thread. The wolves already know that sunrise is the seer because the devil scanned him last night. The only reason you would want to keep quiet and build a trusted network is so the wolves don't find out who you are. At this point it doesn't matter. Selrahc and the wolves have already found out that Sunrise is the seer.

Of course the other logical argument is that Selrahc is the seer and scanned sunrise and found him to be a wolf and uberfish is a wolf attempting to cover for him and make sure we lynch the seer.

I'll keep my vote on Selrahc, though.