The Haunted Forest: Mardoc puts the Sidar to the test.

[Tasunke]

It's pretty easy to trick out a city to spit out a Savant every turn. If Bob were to be the one with a Hyborem ally, he would probably be able to task 3 or more cities to the task. 20 turns later, and Hyborem has 3 size 23 mega metropolises.

But see, I think its this type of cheese that should be banned, not banning cooperation with Hyborem altogether ...


I won't continue to argue for Hyborem in this game, but I see no reason why we can't see Hyborem as a potential ally in future games.

Or are you arguing that a ded lurker should never be used as the switch? ThatI suppose I could agree with, even if it'd be kinda fun in games such as this.

[Mardoc]

T149 played.

Here's our expeditionary force:


If the rest of the out-of-sight road is still there, and I'm willing to attack across the river, I could hit Serdoa in two turns. We'll see; next turn I should be able to Hawk scout near enough to judge what will actually happen. Still - the important thing is to hit Serdoa before he can recover.

And, Baron is no longer a single point of failure!


Baron's spending a turn in Pacman to heal, then he'll head southward. Meanwhile this fellow and his friend will stay in the north, trying to become Great. Yeah, sure, a 5% chance per fight isn't really that much - the much better detail is that 30%/fight chance of also spawning new wolves. Although he took out that lizard without making one, it's only a matter of time.

Anything else newsworthy? Well, I spotted this guy doing...something odd. Building a road in the wilderness, apparently.

[Mardoc]

Yay for barb workers:

Not only did he make my Ravenous werewolf not hungry anymore, he even survived the experience . Gonna escort him back to our core, I think.

Now, for the war situation. First, the road is shrunken, therefore we can't hit Serdoa next turn regardless. Here's what we're up against:


Yeesh. If this is what he's got as random remnants - we definitely have to hit him now, or else we'll be matching up Rangers vs. HA's in the near future.

Here's my cunning* plan


[SIZE="1"]*Not really all that clever, but Str 14 units let you get away with a lot sometimes[/SIZE]

I'm actually not sure if we attack with everything, or just attack with the Beastmasters. Our top Beastmaster has 98% odds on the archer, though, so we ought to be in good shape regardless, here. We might have to use one or more of the Ranger to clear out the barbs from the one and only tile that we can attack from without crossing a river

In Asteroids news, the barbs are lining themselves up nice and pretty for the Baron's southern tour, which starts next turn. He's only at 6.9 health out of 11, so he's going to stand pat and heal for a turn, but then come south and cut a swath.

[Thoth]

I had a look at the t150 save...

Yay for barb workers:

Not only did he make my Ravenous werewolf not hungry anymore, he even survived the experience . Gonna escort him back to our core, I think.

looks like the road runs from Myrean to where we ganked the worker. Which implies there is another barb city to the NW somewhere.

That tips the odds in favour of a barb city capturing expidition. It won't take many worker turns to connect them. We'll need some units to defend the roads though. (more on that later)

Now, for the war situation. First, the road is shrunken, therefore we can't hit Serdoa next turn regardless. Here's what we're up against:

Yeesh. If this is what he's got as random remnants - we definitely have to hit him now, or else we'll be matching up Rangers vs. HA's in the near future.

Whadda you mean "we"? That's what Bob will be facing.

Here's my cunning* plan

Well Baldric, it's like this:

Taking that city will likely cost us the game.

There is no way in heaven or hell that we can defend a city that far from our production centres without a road connection. And there is no longer a road connection. We'll need worker turns and at least 3 Rangers + a Priest to keep the road open. Plus it will split our forces very badly. You've commited all of our Beastmasters, the bulk of our Experienced Rangers, The Nether Blade and all our Ghosts. There isn't a Thane with the stack so we're looking at ~6 turns of unrest before the city even *starts* to produce anything.

We'll be risking casualties amongst our core troops for a city of dubious value to us and that can't be re-enforced in a timely manner. I do not think this is a good idea.

In the meantime, Bob's got his army (which should be nicely experienced by now) in the area, ready to cut our dick off once the NAP expires.

Let Bob have the Hippo lands (we do want some scouting so advancing a pair of Hunters with a Hawk to at least get sight of Bob's army is a good idea, but be careful about exposing us to Hippus attacks).

If a Hawk flight shows us Bob's army, and it turns out to be something we can face with the troops in the field, then maybe think about taking Conrad Mor. But otherwise, leave a Scouting force of Rangers/Hawk (plus maybe a Hidden Ghost or two) in the area and pull back the bulk of our forces.

We can grab Myrean and the Barb city to the NW (which may be some distance away) to up our build queues while still keeping our core forces concentrated.

We don't have much hope of keeping any Hippus cities vs Bob, so there is little point in risking casualties amongst our Elite units.

In Asteroids news, the barbs are lining themselves up nice and pretty for the Baron's southern tour, which starts next turn. He's only at 6.9 health out of 11, so he's going to stand pat and heal for a turn, but then come south and cut a swath.

Why is Asteroids building a Hunting Lodge? A Library + rebuilding the Brewery look better to me. We'll want some economic infra (not much mind you ) and we have some turns before the NAP with Bob runs out. (note that the NAP runs until 10 turns after Serdoa is elliminated so speeding up that prospect isn't necessarily in our interests)

Once Priesthood is in we'll want 3 Stonewardens (1 for a Temple of Kill'em'orph in Asteroids + 1 each for Asteroids/PacMan as healers and unit buffers) and a couple of workers from PacMan.

Pacman could use a Smokehouse as well to cut the unhealthies/shorten growth times/actually grow.

We'll also want to finish up the NE and start running some Priests in Pacman.

[Mardoc]

Well Baldric, it's like this:

Taking that city will likely cost us the game.

There is no way in heaven or hell that we can defend a city that far from our production centres without a road connection. And there is no longer a road connection. We'll need worker turns and at least 3 Rangers + a Priest to keep the road open. Plus it will split our forces very badly. You've commited all of our Beastmasters, the bulk of our Experienced Rangers, The Nether Blade and all our Ghosts. There isn't a Thane with the stack so we're looking at ~6 turns of unrest before the city even *starts* to produce anything.

We'll be risking casualties amongst our core troops for a city of dubious value to us and that can't be re-enforced in a timely manner. I do not think this is a good idea.

In the meantime, Bob's got his army (which should be nicely experienced by now) in the area, ready to cut our dick off once the NAP expires.

Let Bob have the Hippo lands (we do want some scouting so advancing a pair of Hunters with a Hawk to at least get sight of Bob's army is a good idea, but be careful about exposing us to Hippus attacks).

If a Hawk flight shows us Bob's army, and it turns out to be something we can face with the troops in the field, then maybe think about taking Conrad Mor. But otherwise, leave a Scouting force of Rangers/Hawk (plus maybe a Hidden Ghost or two) in the area and pull back the bulk of our forces.

Hmm. You might have a point, at least for now. Maybe we should come back when we can bring a pack of wolves instead. Do bear in mind that if it's far for us, it's ungodly far for Bob. But on the other hand, it's true that he can replace an army a heck of a lot faster than we can, at this stage of the game.

There can't be a thane with the stack, not if it was to be done quickly.

Gonna have to think about it a bit. Although I realize the decision needs to be made before next turn - but it's also very true that Bob has a big army around here somewhere.

I suppose everything will be easier once we have collateral as an option, too.

We can grab Myrean and the Barb city to the NW (which may be some distance away) to up our build queues while still keeping our core forces concentrated.

Oh, is that the reasoning for the road? Yeah, I'll definitely put my paws on Myrean. I was planning to do that literally, with 'wolves once they built up a sufficient population, but I suppose we could use the Beastmaster stack instead.

Why is Asteroids building a Hunting Lodge? A Library + rebuilding the Brewery look better to me. We'll want some economic infra (not much mind you ) and we have some turns before the NAP with Bob runs out. (note that the NAP runs until 10 turns after Serdoa is elliminated so speeding up that prospect isn't necessarily in our interests)

Well, it's not spent any hammers quite yet - but I want a couple more Hawks. Yet it seems very silly to throw ~30 doubled hammers at one in in Pacman. Plus Hunting Lodge is the bulk of our military options at this point.

Once Priesthood is in we'll want 3 Stonewardens (1 for a Temple of Kill'em'orph in Asteroids + 1 each for Asteroids/PacMan as healers and unit buffers) and a couple of workers from PacMan.

Pacman could use a Smokehouse as well to cut the unhealthies/shorten growth times/actually grow.

We'll also want to finish up the NE and start running some Priests in Pacman.

You sure we need more workers? We didn't lose as much this time around, we're nearly to working all improved tiles again. And we did just capture one, I know there's another barb worker out somewhere, and likely Myrean is partly improved already.

I agree we want Stonewardens and perhaps a smokehouse, sure.

[Thoth]

We're not fully commited one way or the other yet. I'd *really* like to get a look at Bob's army before making the final descision on Conrad Mor.

If it looks like we can plausibly hold the city vs what Bob has in theatre, then sure, take it. But what we've got in the East is our main army and we can't re-enforce it.

We'll have long supply lines and if Bob kills that force, we'll lose.

It is as you say, further for Bob than for us. But we don't know where his core is and it puts his army close to our core. Having our Elite forces and our Artifact killed off while they are beyond support range of our other troops.....not good for us. Bob can afford to lose his current army and still have defense in depth. We can't.


I think we do want a couple more workers. We've got tiles to improve around Asteroids plus a road to the Wines in the West and a Winery to build, road links to connect to Myrean (if we go there) plus tiles to improve around Myrean. Not to mention reconnecting the Black Road to Hippus lands if it looks like we can hold some of them.

Two Hawks is probably ok atm, but we do want them on Hunters and roving about for some better boarder scouting. Bear in mind that Hawking prevents barb (and barb city) spawns for 1t on the tiles revealed. We may not want to have too many tiles revealed.

But we do want to get sight on Bob's army and hopefully some of his homeland cities.

[Mardoc]

We're not fully commited one way or the other yet. I'd *really* like to get a look at Bob's army before making the final descision on Conrad Mor.

If it looks like we can plausibly hold the city vs what Bob has in theatre, then sure, take it. But what we've got in the East is our main army and we can't re-enforce it.

Y'know - just because we take the city doesn't mean we have to keep it. No razing permitted, and the eastern army is all 2 movers + Sever Soul - they can run if they have to, we can come back to fight another day. Meanwhile, Bob's army is champions and PoL - quite possibly a threat in a standup fight, but not a fast group.

Frankly, although I want Serdoa's cities, if need be I'm happy to abandon them again.

Besides, I fear Serdoa as a tactician more than Bob. I fear being outmanuevered more, too, by 5/6 move Hippus horses than 2/3 move PoL/Champs. I'll feel more comfortable once he's out of the game.

And...at the moment improving tiles around Asteriods is pointless, due to Motherland anger. Kill Serdoa, that problem goes away!

[Mardoc]

Played the turn this morning. Decided to move up to the forested hill, at least - if Serdoa can kill us there, he can kill us anywhere . Hawk scouting discovered that AtM is much less guarded, it had 1 HA, 1 Archer, 1 warrior, IIRC. Although that archer is better promoted, so I dunno. We still have time to change our minds here.

Decided you were right about going Library first in Asteroids, it's got enough commerce for that to a big profit, soon. Plus I'd forgotten that Philo doubles it, so it's only a three turn build. I did fire the Engineer and have him be a cowherd instead, I don't think we'll want to push for another GEng at this time.

Pacman finished a Ranger and started a Stonewarden, while we've started on the three turn Arete tech plan. That corresponds nicely to our 3 turns of stonewardens; we'll then bust out Bambur ASAP, and move on to...well, I'm not sure what we want while we wait on Bambur to get his Wanable XP. Maybe that's the best time for Trade and Honor.

Also, we need a new candidate unit for Wanables. Bob's keeping up with our GNP; presumably he's getting cottages laid down in his new acquisitions. So to pull back ahead we need to start getting Wanes again.

I've a couple ideas on this front. First, we could simply go back to copper warriors. The problem is...the barb mix is changing. I don't have nearly the confidence I used to that they could survive to 17 XP - and more importantly, they can't attack in the field, especially vs archers.

We could go for Axes. Generally better than warriors in the field, 30 hammers instead of 16, but they still won't be able to attack archers or archer-guarded stacks. Although - we could use WWs to take off the top defenders.

Finally, we could go for horsemen. Fast movement means they don't waste a lot of time leaving and returning from our cities, bonus vs archers is nice. We have a stable from Serdoa in Asteroids, are likely to have stables in Conrand Mor and AtM if we actually take them. 40 hammers is a bit steep, granted, but it'll still pay off. And...we're considering going up to Warhorses, Rathas, Shadowriders, etc - so stables will be a pretty good investment regardless.

[Mardoc]

Played T152. Here's the bulk of the news:

We lost one lowish-XP Ghost, to do that. I decided the odds aren't good enough to attack with the Rangers; we'll either let the Beastmasters heal and send them in again, or we'll call it quits for now, now that we've killed off 5 of Serdoa's high-XP horsemen.

Baron gave us another nice gift, so I had to do some judicious pruning of the barbs with Rangers, to make sure this guy's got odds next turn:


And, I sent out a Ranger with Hawk to try to find Bob. Didn't. Did, however, find this sign of his presence:

[Thoth]

Y'know - just because we take the city doesn't mean we have to keep it. No razing permitted, and the eastern army is all 2 movers + Sever Soul - they can run if they have to, we can come back to fight another day. Meanwhile, Bob's army is champions and PoL - quite possibly a threat in a standup fight, but not a fast group.

Frankly, although I want Serdoa's cities, if need be I'm happy to abandon them again.

Besides, I fear Serdoa as a tactician more than Bob. I fear being outmanuevered more, too, by 5/6 move Hippus horses than 2/3 move PoL/Champs. I'll feel more comfortable once he's out of the game.

Meh. Our defenses [strike]are[/strike] would be very solid vs anything Serdoa could bring at us....especially when he's facing an army of Elfs on his other border.

And...at the moment improving tiles around Asteriods is pointless, due to Motherland anger. Kill Serdoa, that problem goes away!

True, we can't grow productive pop yet.


OTOH, I looked at the t152 save. WTF are you planning to do with our two workers?

Played the turn this morning. Decided to move up to the forested hill, at least - if Serdoa can kill us there, he can kill us anywhere . Hawk scouting discovered that AtM is much less guarded, it had 1 HA, 1 Archer, 1 warrior, IIRC. Although that archer is better promoted, so I dunno. We still have time to change our minds here.

Decided you were right about going Library first in Asteroids, it's got enough commerce for that to a big profit, soon. Plus I'd forgotten that Philo doubles it, so it's only a three turn build. I did fire the Engineer and have him be a cowherd instead, I don't think we'll want to push for another GEng at this time.

Asteroids will never produce another GP in this game. Work tiles.

Pacman finished a Ranger and started a Stonewarden, while we've started on the three turn Arete tech plan. That corresponds nicely to our 3 turns of stonewardens; we'll then bust out Bambur ASAP, and move on to...well, I'm not sure what we want while we wait on Bambur to get his Wanable XP. Maybe that's the best time for Trade and Honor.

Pretty certain that we don't need Trade for Honour in EITB (but double check me on this one).

Possible tech paths: Arcane line for some Magic fun and possible insta Mages (works well with some Priests in Pacman.....assuming you ever actually hire some).

Smelting/Iron Working: Gets us 1/2 price Forges and possible Iron + Champions. Decent, but we'll have Diseased Corpses with AV...

CoL/Religious Law: Gets us access to Courthouses/Aristocracy....we'll want Courthouses to help pay the maint on Hippo cities, gives us access to Theocracy (unlimited priests, +2 xp on new units, Chalid with Empy)

Masonry/Construction/Sanitation: Activates marble (mostly useless at this point unless we build a third Library), gets us chain irrigation, Walls, Chariots (with expensive Siege Workshop), +1 food from farms, access to Bathhouses for extra happy....

Also, we need a new candidate unit for Wanables. Bob's keeping up with our GNP; presumably he's getting cottages laid down in his new acquisitions. So to pull back ahead we need to start getting Wanes again.

I've a couple ideas on this front. First, we could simply go back to copper warriors. The problem is...the barb mix is changing. I don't have nearly the confidence I used to that they could survive to 17 XP - and more importantly, they can't attack in the field, especially vs archers.

We could go for Axes. Generally better than warriors in the field, 30 hammers instead of 16, but they still won't be able to attack archers or archer-guarded stacks. Although - we could use WWs to take off the top defenders.

Finally, we could go for horsemen. Fast movement means they don't waste a lot of time leaving and returning from our cities, bonus vs archers is nice. We have a stable from Serdoa in Asteroids, are likely to have stables in Conrand Mor and AtM if we actually take them. 40 hammers is a bit steep, granted, but it'll still pay off. And...we're considering going up to Warhorses, Rathas, Shadowriders, etc - so stables will be a pretty good investment regardless.

Another option is to tech to Stirrups. We have both optional pre-reqs so it would be cheap. Horse Archers would be a nice addition to our forces. (OFC, you'd actually need to move a Worker or two onto the Horses and Pasture them for this to work....we could really use another worker or two soonish, plus a plan to use them well)

If you *really* want Waneable units at a decent hammer cost Archers/Axes are our best bet at the moment.

If we can get a few levels of the Altar built, then Ritualists (who level fast) would be our next best bet.

Played T152. Here's the bulk of the news:

We lost one lowish-XP Ghost, to do that. I decided the odds aren't good enough to attack with the Rangers; we'll either let the Beastmasters heal and send them in again, or we'll call it quits for now, now that we've killed off 5 of Serdoa's high-XP horsemen.

Well...we're committed now.

Next turn, Hide the Ghosts (for the extra first strike) and check the odds with our healthy Beastmaster....if they're good, take the shot. Then have our best Ranger take the Nether Blade and check odds.

It'll take forever for our units to heal without a Medic....Spirit 1 will help, but I'd say withdraw to a defensive position via Divided Soul rather than camp where we are. Unless it will only take a turn or two to heal or we can actually take Conrad Mor with acceptable casualties.

Did we earn any fresh promos in the combat? If so we can promo heal (via the Combat line....don't bother with any more Formation promos)

Baron gave us another nice gift, so I had to do some judicious pruning of the barbs with Rangers, to make sure this guy's got odds next turn:

We'd have been better off with the Baron camped on a defensive tile next to the barb stack. Barbs is dumb. They won't always attack, but they usually will. We could have gotten several WWs out of those barbs instead of just one.

And, I sent out a Ranger with Hawk to try to find Bob. Didn't. Did, however, find this sign of his presence:

Better luck next time Bob.