Realms Beyond Werewolf 2 : Game Thread

[Serdoa]

Rowain: Why is there in all your possibilities no mention of sunrise being the Devil?

Apart from that: Does nobody wonder that some of their suspects have voted for Selrahc? I mean, you all toss around who might be a wolf and still don't even think twice about that Selrahc has within not even a day already 10 (!!) votes against him. Out of 17. I am sorry, but I don't believe that. Thats too easy. And oh, so comfortable for Roland who would otherwise be a main suspect today.

Read the post I did today in the morning and think about it. And then think about the following:

Roland tells us that his network is completely safe and on day 2 when accused that a wolf has infiltrated it, he was really upset how somebody could even think about something like that and he was oh so sure that that would never happen.
And now, on day 3, he tells us that he sent on day 1 (!) a PM to one of the Masons to have an insurance if he dies. Oh, and to 4 other people - because clearly, telling the mason what you think to know in case you die is not enough, you have to tell it 4 other people from whom you have no clue if they are villagers or not. Even better, now it is clear that one of them is the Devil - and that he only knowed how the Mason is because of a PM Roland sent with his thoughts on day 1. A PM to 5 different people that is. And somehow - probably because he is the devil and can read minds - he knowed that Luddite was the mason.

Roland, you know what, I call bullshit. You are making again things up to suit your story and I simply don't buy it anymore. You lied yesterday by accusing me to lie, you lied today that you are the Seer and you lie again to make sure that we lynch Selrahc. I don't know if he is really a wolf or not but I know one thing for sure: He is a victim of your stubborness and self-confidence.

[Kyan]

Roland, you know what, I call bullshit. You are making again things up to suit your story and I simply don't buy it anymore. You lied yesterday by accusing me to lie, you lied today that you are the Seer and you lie again to make sure that we lynch Selrahc. I don't know if he is really a wolf or not but I know one thing for sure: He is a victim of your stubborness and self-confidence.

Does any of that matter though, if Selrahc is the devil?

Maybe Roland does get tunnel vision, maybe he's stubborn, maybe he's a complete bastard but if he's right on this occasion- so what?

Selrahc is yet to make any real attempt at saving himself. He knows the bases are covered and he's screwed. If he *IS* a villager, he's clearly not a power role as he'd have to be playing that card by now to try and save himself.

The reason there are so many votes already is because the wolves have, wisely, abandoned him. Who can blame them? If there's a good chance he's gonna get lynched regardless and they're going to have no scrying going forward, the LAST thing they need right now is to draw more suspicion on themselves.

[Lewwyn]

If Roland's a WW we'll lynch him when the time comes. I mean come on Serdoa. We can only lynch one person a day. At this point there is no network, its pretty much all on the table. Whatever, lol.

[Rowain]

Serdoa you raise several good concerns about roland. Including sending a reassurance mail to 5 different people (IMO there is only one person villager beyond any doubt).

why have I not listed sunrise as devil? good question. Perhaps because I believe Selrahc to be the devil read here and here

Btw. Gaspar You have still not explained your anti-meiz stand.

[T-hawk]

About time, I might add, I think we're losing lurkers by the boatload.

Well, the purpose of this game isn't necessarily to entertain lurkers. But I'm entertained all the same.

[Serdoa]

As for the Owl role:

A "Tracker" may see what someone's night action was, or the target of their action.

So I guess this is some sort of tracker which can follow one player in the night and see who this player is visiting - but not what he is doing.

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Does any of that matter though, if Selrahc is the devil?

Maybe Roland does get tunnel vision, maybe he's stubborn, maybe he's a complete bastard but if he's right on this occasion- so what?

Yes it does matter. It does matter because people are willingly following him as if he is speaking the truth. And obviously he is not. I will be at work and then playing my PBEMs for another 3 hours [edit]so I will explain in more detail later[/edit], but honestly, I do not trust anything of what was said today and even more worrying I find the fact that half the people voting do so because of Roland and the other half may very well be the remaining 5 wolves.

I also don't buy that they have abandoned him already - if they would not vote for him, he would have good chances to survive as I believe that the evidence presented is rather weak. Why are we sure he is the Devil? Because he visited at night another house as the one of the last victim. Ok so:

First: If the Owl-role follows the player and sees whom he is visiting in the night, shouldn't it see for the devil two visits? For his scry and for the kill? I don't know how it is supposed to work (first time I play) and I don't know how F&I is doing it but at least that would make sense.

Second: If he is not the Devil, he could be the Seer, he could even be the Baner. Because we do not have evidence that MJW is the Baner. We believe that - but for what reasons? With all that lieing going on, who does tell us that MJW stating he is the Baner is not another lie? One which was bought happily by Roland and the Masons. The only reason we believe it is because Sandover was a wolf. That doesn't make MJW the Baner though, even that everyone wants us to believe that.

Third: The seer has not revealed himself yet. Why? Didn't he have with Roland and MJW already two worthwhile candidates to scry? Well maybe he did scry both and couldn't reveal himself to either. Oh stop, I forgot, sunrise is the Seer according to uberfish. Sunrise, the one guy who is not posting at all but to be believed because... uh, yeah, because of exactly nothing.

I mean I confess that I may be paranoid, but really, I don't see how you all can be so sure about that stuff. You have no evidence for Selrahcs guilt except for the knowledge that he has a role which does something tonight. And that only IF this new secret role which conveniently came right now when Rolands trouble were deepest is to be trusted.

[scooter]

Ok, I'm falling behind here. This is just a quick note to let everyone know that I've come down with some sort of nasty virus (the physical kind, not computer kind ), so I'm a bit behind on these posts. I just realized the voting is flying fast, and if we do lynch Selrahc (which is where I'm leaning heavily right now), I don't want to be accused of purposely waiting until there was no other choice than to pile on. I'm heavily leaning towards Selrahc at the moment, but I am still disturbed at how much lying Roland appears to be doing, and how much of a free pass he seems to be getting despite the fact that he's wrong so frequently. I halfway feel like Selrahc and Roland are both WW's, but again, I need some time to catch up on the last batch of posts and to get my thoughts together, which might not be til late tonight as I have a doctor's appointment pretty soon, so I'll be away from my computer for a good while.

[scooter]

Ok, I had some time to type up some thoughts before I'll be gone for awhile. First off, this was something Lewwyn said to Serdoa:

Whatever dude. I'm playing the game as I see it. Go on and be mad. You seem to think that we'd never lynch a Villager, and if we did its because we're listening to WWs. Please, the only way you could have know that Meiz was a villager for sure is if you scryed him or you were a WW. Meiz presented as a suspect, we lynched him. So far you haven't lynched anyone Serdoa. You voted to lynch Sareln you voted to lynch Gaspar. In neither case did you have an active hand in the lynch vote. Its real easy to sit on your pedestal and cast blame around when you haven't participated in a successful vote yet. Not getting your hands dirty, huh? Going to wait until the end of each day and vote for the losing side, huh? Just want to go ahead and say everyone else is stupid? You can't be wrong because you've never taken a chance. If you are not a WW, you are worse then a WW, Pontius Pilate. Go wash your hands some more. Better make sure there's no blood.

The only words that came to mind was.... chill out? It's posts like these that make me wary of the whole Roland faction. You people have this attitude of "we're right, and if you disagree with us, then we will seriously mess you UP!!" Chillll. Especially the last 3 sentences seems way way way over the top. He's "worse than a werewolf" because he disagrees with Roland? How dare he!

I really need to get this out there to all the Roland haters and all the people who are suspicious of Roland. Last night, I got a msg from Roland and the man was broken. Defeated and worn out and seriously fried. Like a man who’d given up. He put everything into attempting to get Meiz lynched.

Just something to consider. If Roland was a WW, wouldn't he do the same thing? It's very easy to fake a "broken" or "defeated" attitude when you're typing it on the internet. If you want, I'll demonstrate for you.

Whos left? Scooter and Uberfish. First Scooter. He voted for sunrise early. Nothing too wrong with that. The issue is that it’s a safe move. I’ve talked before about bandwagoning. I both fear it and find it necessary. Villagers must chose a side or Wolves get to tip the scales as they choose. The thing about scooters vote is that he had a side. He was arguing against Meiz being a WW. Heartily. So why didn’t he vote for Gaspar? It would have helped save Meiz. Instead he chose to remain more inconspicuous while gaining cred for defending Meiz. Also take his vote and either Rowain or uberfish’s vote and he could have toppled Gaspar. Too bad that if Gaspar was innocent, this would have then put the wolves in the most suspicious category. I will not condemn Scooter for his vote, however, but it raises flags for me when in conjunction with his defense of Meiz without a vote.

I'd like to address this. The way you phrase this makes it sound like I just picked sunrise out of the blue later on so that I had, in effect, a "neutral" vote. I did no such thing... I actually was the one who pushed the sunrise bandwagon early on, before magically everyone ran away from that so that they could lynch an innocent villager - Meiz. If you want I can dig it up, but I wrote up a detailed post on why I thought sunrise should be lynched on day 2. I stuck with that. I believed Meiz was innocent, but I thought the stuff on Gaspar was pretty circumstantial too, so I didn't want to vote for him either. I mean think about it, if I pile on Gaspar, he gets lynched, and he turns out to be innocent. I'm toast. Roland and his buddies who voted for Meiz would be all over me the next day, and then I'd be dead resulting in two straight villager lynches. And like I said, I didn't believe in Gaspar being guilty. I was suspicious for awhile (back when Roland was defending Gaspar) and I even noted that in a post and considered switching to him, but when Gaspar finally spoke up for himself, it made a lot of sense, so I stuck with the vote I believed in - sunrise. Also - the vote was far enough away that me voting for Gaspar would have done nothing, Meiz would've still been lynched.

All that said - Meiz was someone I'd talked by PM several times, and from things he'd said, I fully believed he was innocent. I also didn't buy into the fact that Gaspar was guilty, so I figured the best way to go about this was to attack Roland, because everything he was doing screamed werewolf to me. He was leading the charge on Meiz on extreeeeemely flimsy evidence (like seriously, I was more suspicious then Meiz), and every time he did something suspicious, everyone seemed to give him a free pass on it, and I wanted to call him out on it. When it turned out I was right and he was wrong, he said he'd take a step back and try to regain credibility... And yet here we are, he's dominating the discussion on day 3 again, and he's already lied a few more times today. This is highly, highly disturbing to me, and I don't trust him one bit. That said, I wouldn't be shocked one bit if Selrahc is the devil, because it does fit.

Let's keep something in mind though. If Selrahc is the devil, it's not a huge win for us... Keep in mind, the WW's already know all the roles. So it makes perfect sense that Roland, a WW with his credibility dipping, would hand over the devil NOW that the WWs don't really need him anymore. It would gain him huge credibility, which would mean the WWs are the favorites to win, given they know all the roles and have Roland deep under cover. I think Selrahc is probably our devil, but I'm not ready to bow down to Roland just yet if Selrahc is in fact the devil. I don't think any true villager would lie as frequently as Roland does, or have such a rabid following among villagers who've never actually been able to verify him. This is all just some things to keep in mind.

Ok this is all I have time for because I need to go now... Hopefully more later, but I at least feel comfortable enough to cast my vote based on what I've read.

[Lewwyn]

Don't twist my words scooter. I'm not pissed at Serdoa because he disagrees with Roland. If you actually read what I wrote, I don't like the way he casts blame on everyone while doing nothing to solve the problem. I really don't care at this point what people think of Roland. Everything is in the open, make of it what you will. I don't really expect to live too much longer in this game so you can go ahead and bash each others skulls in as soon as I"m gone.

As for the last 3 lines. I'm a writer, playing with words and having fun is my thing. The last paragraph just makes me smile. Thanks for bringing it back up.

[Lewwyn]

Ah and just to be clear on one thing, Roland had nothing to do with choosing to follow selrahc. He had nothing to do with selrahc being outed as the devil/seer. He's just the one who reported it to protect the real Owl. How, pray tell, is that Roland serving up the Devil? If he is a wolf then he's being forced to give up the Devil. It wasn't a conscious choice or plan.

Oh and yes you've made posts that were more suspicious posts then your voting pattern. I wasn't really calling you out there, just saying I thought you were a grey man nothing really to be learned by your voting.


Want to address Serdoa's thing about the seer not revealing himself. Think about it this way. Everyone wanted the seer to scan the mayor. Who's the mayor? Selrahc. If selrahc is the devil then, boom the seer can not trust anyone. I don't think its too hard to believe that the seer hasn't reached out to anyone because it's only day 3... Day 3 people. That means the Seer has had two scries. One for the Mayor (WW) and one for today which he would have only received very shortly!

And, are you really still banging that drum that MJW is not the baner?