(August 12th, 2014, 18:39)TheHumanHydra Wrote: I admit I underestimate the artsy techs (and Epics), as I like to call them ... they're fairly cheap; I wonder if they could be snuck in at the same time as some other techs, ie. if tech A that we want costs 4 beakers and random artsy tech B costs 2, and we produce 3 in a turn, teching B then A in two turns instead of just A (before stopping to save gold again). This wouldn't save beakers, obviously, but might help with tech timings at certain junctions?
Our overflow (and cash savings) probably won't get quite big enough that we could just 1-turn our way to Guilds, so squeezing artsy techs there probably won't work. But maybe we can work according to this logic after our guilds goal and when we divert to top part of the tree.
It's the last turn of our golden age and (as all good things must come to an end) the benign and only slightly Slavey rule of Fintourist comes to an end and the cruel whip hand of Old Harry will now strike fear into the denizens of Aztecca. Speaking of whip hand I did hurry the lighthouse in Marmalade. Two food is more important than thousands of imaginary people!
Its been a long time since I had to think about worker micro - the two guys you left me here (selected and highlighted) were bad enough, turns are going to get a lot longer when I have sixteen to control . Anyway while I think we want to chain irrigation over to Hazelnut through Quentin's BFC, Q won't grow for three turns so speeding up the farm doesn't help. Hazelnut on the other hand could do with more hammer tiles to work rather than coast so I think F should mine the plains hill SW of the city. Hazelnut will probably be our Heroic Epic city unless we decide to use one of Azza's cities (no academy in the capital, so that might be an option), so the more hammers the better.
Meanwhile down south there are some horses to hook, forests to chop and a road to build to Ophelia (I don't like it only having one route in and out), but the two workers south of Pickle could do that for us over the coming turns so I think A should move up to "farm this" and chop then farm. We're going to need more worker labour for Cornelius, Nina and Izzy anyway. I didn't move the workers in case you had other plans, but I'll do that this evening.
Demos and power are never very interesting so into a spoiler they go. Exports/Imports just gets worse - who should we close borders with?
Who hasn't built any courthouses yet? And did Cynheard just spend three turns in Anarchy?
- I commented stuff in OH's report via chat and I'm too lazy to repeat (and it's too boring for lurkers)
- I was wrong, Krill+Novice and dazed accepted our OBs, I was just too hasty and they had not played yet. This will have positive impact for our scouting
- Azza and Mardoc signed peace, apparently no blood was spilled during their whole war
- It was dazedroyalty who built MoM
- I left a bunch of in-game-signs for OH
- Changed two tile assignments so that Kirby grows quicker (as discussed) and so that Butterscotch also grows this turn
- Known-tech bonus will be huge in this game, again. Probably too big, again. Illustration below..
Our GNP when researching different techs
Theology 673 (nobody has it)
Philosophy 701 (probably only BGN)
Aesthetics (only 1, BGN?)
MC 898 (8 players)
IW 982 (11 players)
Construction 1010 (12 players)
Feudalism (forgot to check )
So if we put research on Construction we are getting a 48 % bonus for our raw beakers, which in this case would mean 337 actual beakers more than if we would research Theology.. That's a pretty big boost.. Later in the game one civ already provides 8 % bonus (currently "only 4 %") and the maximum is 75 % --> keeping up with a smaller empire will be fairly easy, which means that planning your strategy around being a tech leader and counting on crushing everyone through being 2 eras ahead is probably not the right strategy.. Obviously being ahead in tech is better than being behind, but what we definitely need is much more land and later a dominating MFG (utilizing SAs and 1-pop whips helps in the mid-game).
International news first. I was trying to figure out who was at war with Yuris, I've narrowed down that it's noone we've met... Also there is still a dogpile on HAK and it looks like Dazed and Ruff are fighting Attaturk (Bacchus).
We uncover Cynheard's capital and get a crappy Taoism spread in Nina . Perhaps there isn't a dogpile on HAK, maybe it's just that he keeps on attacking everyone around him? Out of shot we might be about to contact Molach up north next to AT.
This made me laugh. Also looks like Boldly still has southern tundra to expand to .
Krovice have a lot of units here - obviously noticed Dtay has guilds and his power is going up...
We're making 580*1.2 = 700 beakers per turn for five more turns, then it'll go to 290*1.2 = 350 beakers at 50%. Current overflow is about 1000 beakers so:
EOT 120 - Iron Working 345 (actual beakers 2232)
EOT 121 - Construction 603 (actual beakers 2908)
EOT 122 - Machinery 1207 (actual beakers 2499)
EOT 123 - Feudalism 1207 (actual beakers 2034)
EOT 124 - Guilds 1725 (actual beakers 1520)
So Guilds will arrive EOT 125 - that's way before I'd thought possible.
We started Forges in Alfie, Gertie and Hazelnut. With Guilds coming so soon though I think we might have to get on with building units instead elsewhere. I'll think about setting up whip overflow from Archers into Maces before Feudalism obsoletes them too. Got another spreadsheet to write!
Lots of micro comments for OH and some thoughts about the war. Spoilered for boringness, carry on casual lurkers!
Alfie (t121-t124):
I think the city should work the new grass hill cottage only once. Partly because we have tech on and adding a village would bring nice value, partly because the city will grow to size 15 in 4 turns with 6+6+6+5 food surplus combo
Butterscotch:
I think we should change the build e.g. into HA. If Englbert's missionary heads for BS the city can 1-pop whip SA already with existing 55/90 hammers. 37-whip + 3 normal production mean that the city gets to 95/90 and those 5 overflow hammers will be rounded nicely to 4 base hammers
Cornelius:
If we don't whip anything here we should drop the grass mine and work 2 new cottages once the city reaches size 9. However, we probably want a decent unit out of the city so this does not matter. I think we could 1-pop whip a HA into auto-upgrading knight that does not complete and on the war declaration turn we 1-pop whip the city again and next turn complete the road S-SW of the city so that the knight can join our troops at Hello Joe once the city is captured
Daisy:
I like the axe pre-build We probably get a HA out of here before Guilds in time to pre-build another one.
Englbert:
Another missionary + knight or HA + knight?
Flossie:
You had a spear plan for the city right? This is another city that is visible to Azza so I think this city should also 1-pop whip a HA on the turn when Guilds comes in, but not finish it until the war declaration turn.
Gertie:
Mostly in infra duties I guess, but the city has so much food surplus so let's squeeze a knight out of here via two 2-pop whips or something
Hazelnut:
You have a worker 2W of the city on the forest, do you want the missionary from Englbert here instead of Buttescotch so that we get OR bonus for the chop into forge? Otherwise let's use the remaining two forests in the BFC for knights?
Izzy:
Galley + knight/mace for our southern invasion?
Jelly Bean:
Another Missionary + knight?
Kirby:
Wants infra, but should probably produce a trireme on the turn we declare so that Azza can't pillage our nets.. Probably we need to squeeze another Missionary out of here as well! Whip hard! At least the city has nice food surplus and partially built SA to get rid of it..
Lucky:
Maybe that Buddhist Missionary that we are about to start isn't that important. One monastery for Alfie might be enough for now, Grocer and Bank will be on Alfie's menu very soon. I left an in-game note/suggestion for archer-auto-upgrade-into-Lbow, but we could be even more aggressive and say screw defenses and get a knight out of here instead
Marmalade:
The city want a library out for its GPP production, but I see that you already started a HA/knight, which is good.
Nina:
At least one knight out of here, maybe even HA+Knight?
Ophelia:
At least one knight
Pickle:
Needs to squeeze a knight out as well
Quentin:
Knight!
"R", "S" & "T" are probably still too immature and can't contribute for the first wave of units and just focus on basic infra.
So that is ~15 knights + some other units that will be available when guilds comes in or soon after.
So maybe we attack at ~T130 with ~10 knights, ~5 HAs, 2 chariots + some other units in the north (with couple of knights following close behind) and with 2 galleys, 3 knights and 1 mace in the south? Possible upgrades are not factored in here, we can do a couple, but let's not spend a huge amount of gold unless it's really necessary..
We probably want to finish ~3 cats somewhere just before the attack too so that we have those available if we need to face Azza's big stack and they will be useful also in case he turtles somewhere.
Well, that's enough for now. As a reminder, immediate changes could make sense in Lucky and Butterscotch.
(August 15th, 2014, 21:29)retep Wrote: Is there a tentative plan already? 10 knights doesn't sounds much, is just to snipe a couple of citites?
Nothing is set on stone, not the attack timing nor the actual tactics. My hypothesis is that we will attack simultaneously in the north and south. In north we follow the outline from you, THH & OH that we discussed earlier and try to capture "Dig Up" on the first turn of war and Hello Joe and Azza's capital on the 2nd turn of war. Southern attack is possibly just a diversion and we try to capture Prove Me Wrong and maybe also ZZZ-something on the 2nd turn of war. The idea there is to a) give Azza a chance to make mistakes b) reduce his production capabilities and c) if he wants to recapture those southern cities, he can do it, but it gives room for our northern troops.
And yeah, I think we can produce ~15 knights within two turns of reaching Guilds and I thought that ~10 of them would be committed for that northern attack. Obviously if we give ourselves more production time after Guilds we can get a 2nd round of units in, but I'm thinking that it might be possible to reach aforementioned targets (and destroy more than 50 % of his production capabililities and cut his source of ivory) with the first wave of units and then consolidate and finish the job with continuous flow of reinforcements. Of course this is still very much under evaluation, Azza's power is rising and is currently still higher than ours (luckily a significant part of that is axes, which don't match well against knights), and I might be too optimistic here.
Essentially by EOT126 we get: Unpromoted:
8 Knight
1 Galley
1 Xbow
2 Cat
1 Archer
3XP:
3 Mace
1 HA
1 Knight
5XP:
3 Knight
2 HA
To add to our existing force of 5 HA, 3 Chariots, a handful of axes and very few spears. All but one of the knights can get to the staging post t128, so t129 can be our attack date, by which time the closer cities could whip some more units. If we get Engineering eot 127 then we could probably attack t128...
The best thing about this is that our power goes up very little before we attack - I think graphs are delayed two or three turns, so Azza gets very little time to respond:
t122 - 15000
t123 - 8000
t124 - 5000
t125 - 47000
t126 - 70000
What do you guys think of the force mix? I suspect Azza has been building a few horse archers over the last few turns to add to his Axes...
Edit: Answers to Fintourist's city suggestions:
(August 15th, 2014, 09:34)Fintourist Wrote: Lots of micro comments for OH and some thoughts about the war. Spoilered for boringness, carry on casual lurkers!
Alfie (t121-t124):
I think the city should work the new grass hill cottage only once. Partly because we have tech on and adding a village would bring nice value, partly because the city will grow to size 15 in 4 turns with 6+6+6+5 food surplus combo
Will do.
(August 15th, 2014, 09:34)Fintourist Wrote: Butterscotch:
I think we should change the build e.g. into HA. If Englbert's missionary heads for BS the city can 1-pop whip SA already with existing 55/90 hammers. 37-whip + 3 normal production mean that the city gets to 95/90 and those 5 overflow hammers will be rounded nicely to 4 base hammers
Done.
(August 15th, 2014, 09:34)Fintourist Wrote: Cornelius:
If we don't whip anything here we should drop the grass mine and work 2 new cottages once the city reaches size 9. However, we probably want a decent unit out of the city so this does not matter. I think we could 1-pop whip a HA into auto-upgrading knight that does not complete and on the war declaration turn we 1-pop whip the city again and next turn complete the road S-SW of the city so that the knight can join our troops at Hello Joe once the city is captured
I want to get two maces and a spear out of Cornelius - hopefully it won't set the economic development back too far...
(August 15th, 2014, 09:34)Fintourist Wrote: Daisy:
I like the axe pre-build We probably get a HA out of here before Guilds in time to pre-build another one.
I went back to the HA so as not to waste the Stable XP.
(August 15th, 2014, 09:34)Fintourist Wrote: Englbert:
Another missionary + knight or HA + knight?
Mish + Knight please! I think OR is going to be valuable in the new cities especially.
(August 15th, 2014, 09:34)Fintourist Wrote: Flossie:
You had a spear plan for the city right? This is another city that is visible to Azza so I think this city should also 1-pop whip a HA on the turn when Guilds comes in, but not finish it until the war declaration turn.
After (or before) building a Mace, yes.
(August 15th, 2014, 09:34)Fintourist Wrote: Gertie:
Mostly in infra duties I guess, but the city has so much food surplus so let's squeeze a knight out of here via two 2-pop whips or something
Will do!
(August 15th, 2014, 09:34)Fintourist Wrote: Hazelnut:
You have a worker 2W of the city on the forest, do you want the missionary from Englbert here instead of Buttescotch so that we get OR bonus for the chop into forge? Otherwise let's use the remaining two forests in the BFC for knights?
The forge is the last infra that H will build, so I think religion is more use in B.
(August 15th, 2014, 09:34)Fintourist Wrote: Kirby:
Wants infra, but should probably produce a trireme on the turn we declare so that Azza can't pillage our nets.. Probably we need to squeeze another Missionary out of here as well! Whip hard! At least the city has nice food surplus and partially built SA to get rid of it..
I thought some Cats would be handy...
(August 15th, 2014, 09:34)Fintourist Wrote: Lucky:
Maybe that Buddhist Missionary that we are about to start isn't that important. One monastery for Alfie might be enough for now, Grocer and Bank will be on Alfie's menu very soon. I left an in-game note/suggestion for archer-auto-upgrade-into-Lbow, but we could be even more aggressive and say screw defenses and get a knight out of here instead
Archer then Knight?
(August 15th, 2014, 09:34)Fintourist Wrote: Marmalade:
The city want a library out for its GPP production, but I see that you already started a HA/knight, which is good.
Library and SA can start after the knight
(August 15th, 2014, 09:34)Fintourist Wrote: Nina:
At least one knight out of here, maybe even HA+Knight?
HA+Knight sounds good to me.
(August 15th, 2014, 09:34)Fintourist Wrote: Ophelia:
At least one knight
It's so far away and so poor at production... Also I don't really want to whip it before size seven, as all the tiles it works are three food...
(August 15th, 2014, 09:34)Fintourist Wrote: Pickle:
Needs to squeeze a knight out as well
Didn't think about this one, but I'm sure it'll be possible.
(August 15th, 2014, 09:34)Fintourist Wrote: "R", "S" & "T" are probably still too immature and can't contribute for the first wave of units and just focus on basic infra.
So that is ~15 knights + some other units that will be available when guilds comes in or soon after.
So maybe we attack at ~T130 with ~10 knights, ~5 HAs, 2 chariots + some other units in the north (with couple of knights following close behind) and with 2 galleys, 3 knights and 1 mace in the south? Possible upgrades are not factored in here, we can do a couple, but let's not spend a huge amount of gold unless it's really necessary..
We probably want to finish ~3 cats somewhere just before the attack too so that we have those available if we need to face Azza's big stack and they will be useful also in case he turtles somewhere.
Well, that's enough for now. As a reminder, immediate changes could make sense in Lucky and Butterscotch.
Including Pickle and Quentin we'll have 12 knights by eot 126, then we can get more for the main attack from Daisy, Gertie and maybe Cornelius and reinforcements from Hazelnut and Daisy.
I'd like to see the archer and preferably the 5-xp horse archers upgraded. I'd also like a few more knights - for reference my initial attack force against Serdoa in Pbem 46 had 17 knights, and they (and their reinforcements) were wiped out - but the surprise element is indeed promising, and it depends what the size, composition, and dispositions of his forces will be.
Aza has construction and ivory aren't you guys concerned about elephants?
Another thing is the culture around the borders is any city going to expand borders soon? Could you flip any tile to your side to help? I'm guessing no, but no harm to ask!
If I understand correctly if you take the border cities, the ivory should still be under Azza control, so you may want to disconnect that fast.
If you have the money I'll updgrade the HAs too, some of the money can be recover by taking the citites.
I think that taken the first 3 cities is very likely more than than that would be difficult unless Mardoc attack too.
Edit because OH edit too: How the culture will look if you were to take the capital?
. Anyway while I think we want to chain irrigation over to Hazelnut through Quentin's BFC, Q won't grow for three turns so speeding up the farm doesn't help. Hazelnut on the other hand could do with more hammer tiles to work rather than coast so I think F should mine the plains hill SW of the city. Hazelnut will probably be our Heroic Epic city unless we decide to use one of Azza's cities (no academy in the capital, so that might be an option), so the more hammers the better. 
- who should we close borders with? 
And did Cynheard just spend three turns in Anarchy? 
)
. Perhaps there isn't a dogpile on HAK, maybe it's just that he keeps on attacking everyone around him? Out of shot we might be about to contact Molach up north next to AT.
- that's way before I'd thought possible.
We probably get a HA out of here before Guilds in time to pre-build another one.
