Werewolf 12: Game Thread

[novice]

I don't think you should overestimate the rationality of a panicked wolf MNG.

[Gaspar]

What do you mean by this? Color me interested.

I meant that all of your comments are digging you a large hole.

FWIW I suspect Ichabod's feeling a bit disenchanted at the moment due to other ongoing games.

Fair point, but I'll still keep my vote there a bit longer in hopes of drawing him out.

I didn't pursue it further, writing him off as a noob (which he has later proved that he isn't) because Catwalk quickly responded with pretty much my exact thoughts:

Odd. I didn't really think much of this at the time - since it largely echoed my own thoughts since Catwalk really frustrates me but in context its a pretty bizarre vote for a new player, even one who has read up.

I don't think you should overestimate the rationality of a panicked wolf MNG.

Concur. Mostly because what got MNG caught was his flailing. Though I will say there's enough scraps and bits of evidence that Bigger is starting to look more and more compelling.

[NobleHelium]

Official Vote Count - Day 2
~6 hours 28 minutes to the deadline

Commodore (6) - Catwalk, Injera, Jkaen, Molach, novice, pling
Ichabod (5) - Commodore, Gaspar, Mardoc, pindicator, Tasunke
Bigger (4) - Meiz, Rowain, Serdoa, zakalwe
zakalwe (1) - Bigger
Mardoc (1) - Lewwyn

No vote - Ichabod, Sareln

[Serdoa]

I can't remember having ever seen so much "Don't read too much into it" when we talked about suspicions. I mean, are you guys (like novice, Commdore, Tasunke, Bigger, Ichabod) actually going to ... don't know, disprove some of the accusations? Or at least point out your own interpretation? Or can I expect that we go on with this general talk without ever touching the subject itself? zak imo showed a pretty good example why the choice by MNG of Bigger was really odd and has a possibility to mean something and that is countered by "don't overestimate the rationality of MNG"? Thats all? Thats... not impressive. And don't even get me started how unexplainable it is for me that novice seems to have made it his job to defend Bigger. Better you do it as he himself did a pretty bad job when he tried?

[Injera]

I didn't pursue it further, writing him off as a noob (which he has later proved that he isn't)

To be fair, I also joined my first WW with the idea that I had lurked enough of these games that I knew what was going on. I was very wrong. That's not really a defense, I'm just saying that you shouldn't assume some prior knowledge has a big correlation with with a lack of "noobness".

[Mardoc]

I can't remember having ever seen so much "Don't read too much into it" when we talked about suspicions.

That's a good point. I think it's enough for me to swap to Bigger. I like the case against him more, anyway, and it might let us learn something about novice, for that matter.

[Ichabod]

There's a lot of posts to read and I'm not that much in the mood to do it. But, well, let's answer some things. It'd be a waste to lynch me, even if I'm a useless villager, because I can still make up for numbers in the victory condition.

I'm going to add this to my evidence against Ichabod. Post 117 from MNG

This is right in the thick of MNG's lashing out and when he would naturally be looking for a target to get other votes onto. This is right after he did his "let's not spread out the vote but let's also vote for Bigger too" post, and he's in the lead by a healthy margin. So why does he take the time to defend Ichabod from Sareln?

Because Sareln voted for me without giving any reasoning. I guess MNG thought that was something worthy to discuss to prove his villagerishness or to get votes of his back.

If you keep twisting everything to make a case against the person you suspect on the sole account of him voting for you on day 1, you're going for a very hard lesson when I'm lynched and revealed to be a villager. But if you are a wolf, you're going down after mislynching me. Unfortunately for you, lynching me is a bad/bad situation.

Ultimately, that's why I decided to give him a break, combined with the fact that I suddenly felt uncomfortable with company I was keeping, and Uberfish (who clearly was innocent, even at the time) wanted to lynch MNG.

Uberfish was clearly innocent at that point? What are you talking about, Zak? Is this game that easy?

Worth noticing: Uberfish was the second villager killed in WW3 (after bob who gave a lot of signs that he was the seer) or the first one after the seer threat was gone. What does this matter? Zak was a wolf on that game. Maybe he decided to do it again?

You can call this reasoning bad, but it's the same as the one used against Rowain, that he was the one who complained for NH to post the villager PM.

I think that is a little bit unfair Ichabod. Show me anyone who would not use this as a defense when getting called wolf. I certainly would and I think most others as well. I am not saying that this makes him a villager but if you are under constant suspicion you will of course always raise the point which shows - from your pov - that you are a villager. No matter your true alignment. You interpreting that as sign that he is a wolf seems a bit far-fetched.

As for your point about pindicator. I can partly agree with it, though I think a very true counter-argument is that he could expect not to be targetted by the wolves, having received some attention already. Also, if he would have been lynched, maybe he would not have cared about if we see that list or not?

One thing is pretty clear. MNG was gone as a wolf. There was no way for MNG not to be lynched in this game, except if the village went nuts. Not because he was that obvious wolf, but because he reached the point of suspicion that there's no going back. That's why I'm implying that a cover sacrifice is so likely and would probably be well spoken by the ones who benefited from it.

Oh, and one last thing: Is it your new playstyle to lash out at everyone voting for you Ichabod? I'm used to that from Rowain, but for you it seems new.

Pindicator is revenge voting me, not the other way around. I suspect Zak for other reasons.

Ichabod is the most interesting. I don't have Pindicator's handy-dandy spreadsheet (could you share that, Pin?), but it does look like Ichabod just sort of walks around quietly, voting often enough to be noticed, but never really pushing a hard line on anyone or voting for someone threatening. He also didn't push MNG at all, at any time.

I'm not saying I was sure MNG was a wolf (of course, there's a lot of people who were absolutely sure he was a wolf, it was really clear as water), but I voted for him, yes.

[novice]

*shrug*

I tell it as I see it, at least you know where I stand. Bigger will have to provide his own defense, I would definitely like to see him explain the specifics you've mentioned. I suspect he's been asleep during the entire buildup of his wagon though.

I still like Commodore to hang. Having several apparently genuine alternatives is good though, I like the village's chances long term regardless of today's outcome.

[Ichabod]

Sorry if I sounded disrespectful with my last post, I'm having a hard time in real life. I'll post more comments about the game later and try to keep it more civil.

[Catwalk]

Yeah, pindicator. That's my number one frustration when people accuse of doing something that if they could only be bothered to actually read the thread they would have seen you've done. Catwalk is very good at that.

Knock it off already, I asked 4 people and already one of those stated that it's a gut feeling. The CW bashing is getting boring to be honest, seems it's turning into a sport in order to gain town credibility. I'm mostly ignoring it because getting drawn into spats is anti-town (and anti-wolf, I suppose). But give it a rest, please. Thank you for the post numbers pindicator.

I looked at your case against Ichabod, and I think it looks weaker than Commodore and Bigger. Pressuring him about it is a good idea, and his lack of response does him no favours. I think he'd be a poor choice for today, though.

And I see a cross-posted a bunch, typed some of this up before leaving for dinner. I find Ichabod's defense credible enough to find him a far weaker choice than Commodore and Bigger.