( No Players )[Lurker Thread] CIV VI PBEM19 Beginner

[suboptimal]

I'm curious to see Thrawn's game develop, partly because it's a "fresh" perspective that he seems to be detailing thoroughly and partly to see what pearls of wisdom Ichabod puts out there.

As a "greenie" game I'd almost say that they might be better off at four people rather than potentially having another vet jump into the mix.

[Kaiser]

There still is no thread and no further answer from Ioan, this feels very similar to PBEM18 where I ended up playing in his spot and I fully agree that it is a very bad sign. Should we encourage the players to discuss replacing him or is this something they should trigger themselves?

I see several ways to go:
- Ioan shows up and stays engaged (I sadly doubt this)
- there is a replacement player who has not yet seen the screenshots (unlikely)
- I create a 4 player map

It seems my well meant question regarding the screenshots backfired heavily.
Thrawn has been quite invested in his blind pick decision making, I can understand that it is upsetting for him to potentially having to reevaluate his picks. However the box is opened and I cannot close its lid anymore, as other players want to see their screenshots and wait with their pre-game analysis/CIV selection.

@thrawn:
I am sorry that I deviated from the initial setup procedure, I hope we find a solution which will be not too discouraging/annoying for you or the others. Maybe a new 4 player map is the way to go here.

[suboptimal]

I wouldn't beat yourself up too bad about changing the rules about the map & starting screenshots. On the one hand Thrawn might be a little aggravated but OTOH I think compared to having people (including Thrawn) potentially constantly complain about the map screwing over their civ choices it's the lesser of two evils.

How frequently/responsive has Ioan been posting while dedlurking you in PBEM 18?

Just checked his stats - Ioan76 logged in here 10 hours ago (as of this post) and failed to set up a thread or offer any response. If I were a player I'd be ticked. As a lurker my feeling is that the possibility should be raised in the org thread. Anyone else have an opinion?

If we go to four people then I'd say everyone keeps their civ lists and we/they agree to starting screenies before making any picks. That keeps their analysis intact. I agree with you that we probably won't find a fifth map-unspoiled player at this point.

[Kaiser]

I would say infrequent, mostly when I asked him something specific.

He answered my PM 10 hours ago that he will create the thread but did not do so yet.

I agree that we should raise this to the players so they can decide.

[MJW (ya that one)]

Assmuing Ioan plays; I put the over/under of archduke ragequitting at turn 50 or lower.

[Woden]

Kaiser, if you do end up providing screenshots, create a save and run through the first turn to get the screenshots. The ones you posted here show the strategics (i.e. horses) that should be hidden.

[Kaiser]

Hi guys. Not sure what to do here. On one hand I'd like to be cooperative and in principle I think the better way is to give the screenshots. Also I would actually benefit from a screenshot because Phoenicia is just the civ I'd like to play here if it turns to be a water map. But I've already posted my Nubia plan about which I'm quite excited and a water map would be a challenge but I think I can still have a highly aggressive game with them and catch a couple of people unaware. If I end up playing someone else, I can forget about playing Nubia this way again and as I said I'm very excited about it. So I'm caught in the middle and can't even discuss it because we'll be entering spoiler territory, which is why I have been leaning heavier into the argument that "I've done my thinking" that is the case. It's true but the more important part is that I've posted a specific plan, otherwise I would do some more thinking to get things going, no prob. But I don't want to say this because it's getting spoilery, and so I end up looking annoying and uncooperative. And it is true that if someone gets Cree, Inca, Norway, etc. they'll be at an advantage with a screenshot over those who drew terrain neutrals, so it's not fair to be voting on this after getting the picks. We should have decided in advance but what is done is done, we'll know for next time, it's just a question of what we do here. So I do believe that the right thing is not to give the screenshots after the fact, but if you disagree with the argument or think it can't be handled without aggravation I'd be ok with the redraw in the way I suggested with getting to 'hold' one. This way I keep Nubia and am at disadvantage on a water map because I would have gone for Phoenicia but I can deal with this. Ljubljana keeps his pick about which he is happy while getting the chance to draw a specialist and switch to it if the map is suitable, and the others get their screenshot without being able to rely on multiple specialists but they can keep one, which puts them at a slight advantage but less than otherwise. And since we don't have a perfect solution, I think this makes a good compromise.

Feel free to post this message in your thread to discuss with the others.

One other question. What is up with Ioan? I'm getting concerned here - it takes less than a minute to post a thread and a few minutes to drop by the organising thread to show you are here and interested to play - especially after receiving PMs about it. He ignored two of mine and didn't even see them for many days even though he was online, so I don't know how to interpret this but it doesn't look encouraging. In my experience a person who can keep a long term commitment usually takes keeping in communication seriously, and it will undo both your hard work and our time invested if we end up with days' worth of delays here and there or having to find a replacement player halfway through and the game falling apart. Based on your communication with him, and what you know about how people on the forum are in general (I mean maybe they don't post much but do get on with the game, TAD's posting also hasn't been exemplary), how do you evaluate the prospects of Ioan playing his turns in a timely fashion? Asking just for an opinion, if I think there is need I'll raise the question with the other players myself and we'll take responsibility for the decision whether we proceed or not. But I'll appreciate the opinion because I'm not familiar with how people are in PBEMs, I see some games have failed but others have succeeded, and I'd like this one to succeed too.

Sorry for the super long message!

Hello Thrawn,

thank you for your message, I will post it to the lurker thread if Supoptimal did not do it yet. Rest assured that we are already discussing this and I am sorry if I accidentally changed the set up of this game with my suggestions.
However the box is now opened and difficult to close from my/our side as we are not the players. You are correct that some players now might become unhappy either because they do not get a screenshot or because they might be at an disadvantage (not picking the CIV they theorized about vs. the other players having a better information base to pick their (specialist) CIV).

Let me see what the reactions in the Lurker thread will be and get back to you.

Regarding Ioan:
He just created his thread and answered sometimes on my and Suboptimals PMs, but infrequently. We had a similar situation in PBEM18 and ultimately I stepped up to play in his stead as the other players were fearing that the turn pace would suffer.
As he created his thread, I suggest to start the game anyways, as the rest of the CIV VI community here already knows the map from the lurker thread and it won't be played at all otherwise.
If necessary, I can create a fresh 4 player map.
However, again, this is up to you players, and I strongly suggest you raise this topic before starting, as I understand that is very annoying to invest thought and effort into this game to then potentially not being able to finish it.

All that being said, as far as I am aware off, he has no previous record of quitting a game or anything, it might just be business/poor forum communication.

Best regards
Kaiser

Thrawn is still unhappy with the screenshot situation and looks for a compromise solution, I understand his position as he has developed a generic strategy he is willing to gamble on.
Also, at least for me, it is clear that such a generic strategy has to be a rush strategy as with a generic Builder strategy I would likely just accept the screenshots, reevalute my pick myself and then try to outbuilder the others (who had better terrain suited picks anyway). I think he already has given his strategy away, especially when the others realize that he picked Nubia.
Do you guys think I should intervene here:
- For no screenshots?
- For Thrawns suggested pick method?
Thrawn asked directly about Ioan and I gave him my opinion, I hope there will be some discussion in the organization thread about this. Do you think I should post the 2nd part of my message in the organization thread?
@Woden
Thank you for the hint, I will do so.
@CMF
I think there is a real risk, though I do not know how his playing rythm will look like

[Kaiser]

As this seems the holdup for the game to start, I am sorry that I proposed the screenshot option without fully regarding the impact on your game.
I suggest you have a quick decision on the below two alternatives:

- each player keeps his current list of CIVs and will choose his CIV without screenshot
- each player chooses one CIV from his current list (mention your choice in your thread please), we will reshuffle the remaining CIVs and redistribute them to the players together with their starting screenshot

Please check and give me your input on the above message to be posted in the orga thread.
I believe this to be the best way forward at the moment, other alternatives for above list would be:
- to reshuffle all CIVs and post together with screenshot
- to inofficially just switch the lists between players and post with screenshot

Both would pose the risk for thrawn to not get Nubia, so I would not suggest them from my side to avoid him getting even more upset about the situation.

I expect the players go with thrawns suggestion to get the game started.

[suboptimal]

I have to agree with Woden's sentiment (posted in CMF's thread) that Thrawn is (way) overthinking the situation. I'm not sure what reshuffling the civ picks does in this case, especially since the players are going to perform a reanalysis and that might add to the aggravation. Why not just say "here's the screenshot, pick?" I suppose it gives Thrawn a slight disadvantage but he'd still have the opportunity to change his pick. His main concern seems to be that he's on a water map and that's not the case here.

I think that any option that provides a new list of civs will just ramp up frustrations further.

[Kaiser]

I agree that he might be overthinking this, I think his main argument is that he wants to stick with generic pick and fears that the others have an advantage due to being able to pick a specific CIV.
In the end he has the same possibility, he just does not want to deviate from Nubia as he has already written about his plan and devalued its surprise (which is a key part of his plan) by posting about it this game. I doubt that it will be as much of a surprise as thrawn hopes for TAD and CMF, but it will likely work on Ljubljana and Ioan as it is difficult to defend against Nubia and likely means that one has to sacrifice the own game plan.

Due to Ljubljana and Ioan not wanting to decide, we arrived at a kind of stalemate.
The actual vote so far has been:
- 2 pro (TAD and CMF)
- 1 against (thrawn)
- 2 neutral (Ljubljana, Ioan)

As the mapmaker, I will get complains anyway, so I can take it by posting this in the orga thread. I can give some more time for Ljubljana and Ioan to redecide until maybe tomorrow so we can get this game started.
They can check the Lurker thread afterwards to see my reasoning.

quick edit: CMF would agree to a reshuffle, maybe we should make sure that he has Inca as well so he has his preferred specialized CIV at hand