GvG

[Swiss Mercenary]

Shelter, no, for the reasons I stated above. Union might have done something, but I don't know that stopping it cold would be the phrase I'd use. I would say Displacement would have a better effect that Union since a good number arrows would wind up missing. The only problem with Displacement would be that it goes down fast, so I'm not sure it would stop all of them. The best defense agaisnt r-spike is to use walls and corners to your advantage, and to split up. R-spike is a full team build and doesn't split very well at all.

Union is THE counter to ranger spike. When facing a team with it, you need not bother using any other spirits. Use Soul Twisting instead of Ritual Lord, too.

[Zed-F]

Assuming you know in advance what you're going to be going up against, sure.

[Hawkmoon]

I had been intending to post some thoughts earlier, but got sidetracked by the Nightfall WPE, and RL.

Losing both matches last Wednesday won't deter me. It really pointed out exactly how many little things we have to learn about GvG. For instance, during the second match when Salamandastron, Zed and I got sent on our "mission" to go open up the front gate to the enemy's base, we had no clue what to do with the Guild Thief. None of us knew that you actually had to lead the Thief right up to the lock before she'd do anything! So that led to wasted time, and lots more damage taken. We won't make that mistake again (I hope).

We sucked mainly due to being disorganized in our efforts. This in turn was due to two things. First, not everyone was on TeamSpeak, which made it nearly impossible to coordinate what we were doing. In the future, we need to make sure that everyone is on TS - if we have to move to a different server, so be it, we've got a few options there. The second problem was that our caller...wasn't calling. Wyrm got sort of suckered into the caller's role, though he said he wasn't really comfortable with it. As a result, we were all attacking different targets, and we had no idea when to unleash a spike, or on whom. So, this is something else we need to address. I would suggest that whoever is going to take on the mantle of the primary caller be someone who can show up for each GvG session, which puts many of us out of the running. I'd ask those more experienced in GvG to suggest which team role is the most appropriate for the caller's job.

Those points aside, it's been fun doing GvG - I hope we get more RBers to take part. It's a totally different challenge from PvE!

Are we going to try GvG tonight? I plan on being there, if we are.

Cheers,
Hawkmoon

[Lurker Wyrm]

I'd ask those more experienced in GvG to suggest which team role is the most appropriate for the caller's job.

Typically it's a warrior because they're usually under the least amount of distress and have (when you think about it) the least to do and can (usually) easily observe what people are doing. Well, I'm sure there are other reasons, but that's mostly what I've seen so far.

As for the whole Monday & Wednesday thing... well, I'm not sure we need that anymore. The reason behind adding Monday was because SF and Seijin couldn't make it Wendesday, so we'd be losing Hureg but gaining the two of them. Well, I haven't heard from or seen SF in almost a month and Seijin said he's going to be able to make Wednesdays now, so unless we actually want to GvG two nights per week we don't need Monday anymore. I'll leave it up to you guys to decide since I'm fine either way, I just don't want to have people with limited playing time (i.e. Hawk) to show up and not have anything happen for 3 hours. The other option would be to make Monday the night for AB or TA or whatever, which would give people a good chance to practice and try new roles in a less competative environment. GvG is not the place to try a new build for the first time.

Also, it would really help matters if people had a secondary means of getting in touch. I've got both AIM and MSN now, and it would be really nice if other people had them as well so I don't have to sit there guessing whether people are actually going to show up or not. Quite often Hawk and Sal will ask "who else is showing up?" and I can't give them an answer other than a bunch of maybes. I've been able to use it quite successfully with Hureg (and occassionally Drasca) in the past. Even if you don't want to talk to anyone, just leave it running in the background in away mode; I can send an "are you there?" message when we're starting to get together.

[Hureg]

Sorry guys but I won't be able to make it today. Hope you are able to get a team going.

Good luck!

PS - The new guild in the alliance (bobo) are apparently a pvp focused guild who appear rather interested in pvping with other members of the alliance, so if you end up short, you might be able to get a few via alliance chat.

[Lurker Wyrm]

We lost again, but it was a lot more fun this time. Everyone was on TS and we were joking with each other which was partly better than the actual fighting. We only had 7 RB people available so Aravis from KKoP joined our ranks with her ele. Xyn had a power failure so we were down our runner (remember, those losses don't count). Zedf left after the first match and Xyn was kerplooie so for some reason I don't yet understand I switched to runner. I should know better than to do that, I'm a baaaaaaad runner.

Just remember, the matches can only get easier.

Oh yeah, we also had an impromptu vote and Monday Nights are for AB/TA/not GvG so we can get more practice and stuff in. Also it's a lot easier to get 4 together. One more decision was to just stick with what we've got so the people who were doing what they were doing can do that more and more and be better at it.

Builds people were using tonight:
Hawk: Shock Axe
Sal: Shock Sword
Zedf: SS/Curses Necro
Vortigen: Cripshot
Seijin: Monk
Wyrm: Monk
Xyn: Trapping Flag Runner
And Aravis was an air ele.

It's pretty clear that the regular build just wasn't working for us (I never expected it to, I just wanted something balanced that was semi-easy to run), so we'll need to come up with something else. We can keep running this, so people can be comfortable with it, but I'd rather run something that doesn't require warriors to co-ordinate a spike and stuff since we don't really seem to be ready for that yet. When we had someone with experience calling the spikes and stuff we were fine, but if we're going to have to make use of our own caller, it's going to be better to start small and run a pressure build where you don't need to co-ordinate as much. I've already got something in mind but I'd like to hear what you guys are comfortable with first so I can work around that. Most PvE builds aren't going to work in GvG as is, but you can tweak them and change a few skills and attributes to make them acceptable.

Once Nightfall comes out It'll be awesome to get some of those classes (and skills) worked in.

Oh, and in case anyone's interested, TNE drafted me to go monk for their GvG and one of the battles was against Amazon Basin. We won.

[Hawkmoon]

It's pretty clear that the regular build just wasn't working for us ... so we'll need to come up with something else. We can keep running this, so people can be comfortable with it, but I'd rather run something that doesn't require warriors to co-ordinate a spike and stuff since we don't really seem to be ready for that yet. When we had someone with experience calling the spikes and stuff we were fine,

I obviously need more experience with calling, no argument there. But what should I have been doing differently? I was trying to tell everyone who our target was, telling Sal to let me know when he was fully charged on adrenaline, and then telling everyone over TS to "Spike...Now!" I don't think we coordinated well on that, but how can I make it better? What directions should I be giving that are different from what I was doing? I didn't mind the caller's job; I want to get better at it. However, we should have at least one other RBer who is comfortable in the caller's role, just for completeness and in case of absences.

but if we're going to have to make use of our own caller, it's going to be better to start small and run a pressure build where you don't need to co-ordinate as much. I've already got something in mind but I'd like to hear what you guys are comfortable with first so I can work around that.

Yes, I'm a n00b - can you please define what constitutes a pressure build? Or give us a link to something informative? And how would you define the build we were using? Balanced? Something else? And please go ahead and post your thoughts - ideally, we could get everyone's role settled BEFORE Wednesday's session! Then we wouldn't be dithering for an hour and a half...

Oh, and in case anyone's interested, TNE drafted me to go monk for their GvG and one of the battles was against Amazon Basin. We won.

Sweeeeeeeeeet!!!! Congrats, Wyrm!

I really enjoyed our outing last night - I thought we were doing fairly well in our second match (we almost made it to VoD, which for us ought to be considered a victory). I know I got confused at some points and ended up changing direction too much, which wasted time. I'll get better.

In thinking about overall strategy, I think it's pretty clear that we need to make more of an effort to control the flag stand in order to get the morale boosts. Would it also be useful to concentrate our efforts on one enemy that we kill repeatedly so that they reach -60 DP and so don't auto-res? Then move onto the next? Or does that take too long? (obviously, when we take someone down, we can move onto another target - but when the first person does res, should we immediately latch back onto them?)

[Sir Salamandastron]

I had fun as well. Hawk, overall, you did good for a first time. We got a couple spikes off and I felt you and I worked well together when we were clearly after a target. One thing you can work on is picking out the next target while beating on the first one, so that the moment Target #1 is dead, you can call the next and we can shift focus quickly. Also, it would help for the caller to assign tasks in the heat of battle. For example, at one point we were pushing the other team back, but a few of their ppl attacked our base with only Wyrm to defend. He asked for help and we wasted several seconds twiddling thumbs until I just said I'd go. If the caller just simply said, "Sal, go help Wyrm" (or whomever) then there's no question, no wasted time.

I do like the idea of picking on one target to get them to -60 DP. Don't know if it'll work, but it sure would've helped against that Spirit of Extinction crap we had deal with. And lastly, I'll be glad to learn to call as well. I agree that we need more than one person capable and bossing people around is up my alley!

I'm glad to see that ppl had fun because I expect we'll be losing a lot more before we get anywhere. As long as the losses are still fun, we're in good shape.

[Lurker Wyrm]

I obviously need more experience with calling, no argument there. But what should I have been doing differently?

Part of being an effective caller is about knowing who to attack. You don't just go after monks in GvG, you go after whoever is the bigest threat to your team. Against ranger spike, the biggest threat to the team comes from the orders necro. If you can keep him shut down you can easily roll through and collapse their entire team. Against the team we fought last night, the biggest threat was that Ranger putting down spirits. They had 3 henches so obviously their offense wasn't all that impressive. However, with Predatory Season, Edge of Extinction, Fertile Season, and Frozen Soil up almost constantly, it was hard for us to really do anything to hurt them while we slowly whittled down to 60dp.

I'm not saying that the ranger should have been the target of all the spikes or even that it needed to be spiked -- the mesmers, which were their primary offense, should have been spiked. If the ranger on our side had changed from crippling people to going all out on shutting down (this is also why I like having a mesmer along... get Diversion on the Oath Shot and it's bye bye spirits) the spirit spammer via Savage and Distracting and saying over TS when the spammer put up Whirling Defense then one of the warriors could have used Shock to knock him down and keep him from spamming spirits, or the air ele could have started to Gale him every time he started laying down a spirit. Also, the warriors could have built up their adrenaline by attacking the spirits that were up instead of other players. It's just another thing that the caller/group leader is responsible for doing, and it requires experience and knowing who on the other team is doing what.

then telling everyone over TS to "Spike...Now!"

When you're going to spike a target, it helps to say who the target is going to be and to ping them a few times (ctrl-clicking a target will show their location on the compass) so people can find the person and get into position (warriors can start moving towards them and rangers and eles can make sure they're in range and not obstructed). Then when you're in position you let everyone know you're going to spike and give a countdown (counting down from 3 is what most people do) so people know when to unleash their attacks.

This is also where individual player skill comes in handy: knowing when your own attacks will need to be started so they can land at the same time. For example, An air ele using Orb can't start spiking at the same time as a warrior because Orb takes 2 seconds to cast and another second or so to reach the target (from maximum range). Because of this, the air ele might want to start its spike on 2 so that the Orb hits around the same time as the first warrior hit, which will allow them to follow immediately with Strike for the bonus damage. Other things, like the type of bow the ranger is using will effect the timing of a spike and it's up to each player to know what their build can do.

One easy way to practice that type of timing (if you're a non-war) is to go into the Isle of the Nameless on the Battle Isles and bring the warrior hench with you. Pick a target and call it, then figure out when you need to attack so that your attack lands at the same time his does.

I want to get better at it.

Experience is the only way. How about this, whenever we get together for AB, you lead the group. You pick the targets and you decide where the team goes. Seijin will be the monk (he said he doesn't have that much PvP monk experience) and I'll be... a nuker (I never get to play one of those anymore).

Yes, I'm a n00b - can you please define what constitutes a pressure build?

Sure, here's a quick rundown of the types of builds there are for GvG:

Pressure is generally a build that is designed to constantly put out mid-heavy damage. Whirling Axe and Cleave are warrior skills suited to pressure. The main idea is to wear the other team down; deplete the monks' energy so they can't heal the team anymore and people just start dying while the team collapses. These types of teams also have a lot of energy drain utility skills, such as Debilitating Shot and Energy Surge/Burn.

Heavy spike is where your entire build centers around dealing a very large amount of damage in a short amount of time and not much else. These builds are the most lethal, but they're also easier to take apart if you know what to do and generally they can't adapt as well to a split situation since the offense can't really be broken up (usually at least 5 members of the team are devoted entirely to offense). Common types of spikes include: ranger, air, blood, adrenal, and FoC (Feast of Corruption).

Balanced is a team that is focused on a balance (hence the name) of offense, defense, and utility skills that allow a build to adapt to almost any situation. These are the most capable of splitting up the group to accomplish differing objectives. However, they generally don't have an overwhelming offense and tend to run the match to VoD.

Gank teams are basically a team designed specifically to split, where one (usually defensive) team goes to the flag stand defends that, while the other team goes directly to the enemy base and starts taking out NPCs. They're mostly built to wait for VoD so they have an advantage when all the NPCs head to the center. They also make it harder for a team to fall back and be under the protection of their base NPCs should something go wrong out in the field. Assassins have mostly found their niche in GvG builds as the center of gank squads (or even as solo gankers).

Or give us a link to something informative?

http://www.team-iq.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=6
I've already given out this link, but it's to the PvP fundamentals over at team-iq. That is the best place to go to learn how to do anything PvP; the top players from both the American and European servers hang out there. There's also the general GvG forum, which you can find here: http://www.team-iq.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=3

Places like Guru and GWOnline have become overrun with people who aren't very good players and give bad advice and bad builds, but are that noisy crowd and there's no stopping them since they're technically not violating the rules. Not to say that they're the only people on those sites anymore, some of the people who run team-iq are also mods and admins over at Guru.

And how would you define the build we were using? Balanced?

Balanced is correct.

In thinking about overall strategy, I think it's pretty clear that we need to make more of an effort to control the flag stand in order to get the morale boosts.

Morale is nice, but the battle at the flag stand is more to make sure the other team doesn't get the boost.

Would it also be useful to concentrate our efforts on one enemy that we kill repeatedly so that they reach -60 DP and so don't auto-res?

Yes. Ideally you want to do that to the monks first, then work your way through their offense. But that's one of the goals in a GvG match: take a player out of the game by killing them off repeatedly.

the moment Target #1 is dead, you can call the next and we can shift focus quickly.

Bad idea. If we were running a quick spike team, such as ranger spike, then that could work. When your spike is adrenaline based, you're not going to want to have the entire team shift straight from one target to the next like you do in PvE. Once you unleash adrenaline you build it up again on whoever before you unload a second time. If a warrior gets blacked out (and thereby loses all adrenaline) then you wait for them to recharge before doing the next spike. When I go with TNE it can sometimes be almost a full minute between kills if the other team is using a lot of blind and blackout. Some teams I've seen in observer mode will have a warrior using Death's Charge (for the instantaneous transport) and will wait the entire 45 seconds for it to be ready again before spiking the next target.

Sal, one thing you did that I'm sure you did with the best of intentions but was really not very helpful in practice was when you started calling targets at random. That's a no no. As Swiss said earlier:

Mid-battle is not the time... for people to try to re-invent the wheel on their own.

If you felt the team wasn't focusing or whatnot, then you should have said something along the lines of "do we have a target yet? Or my adrenaline is ready" -- not start calling your own. It's very important for the team to only have one person bossing them around. That doesn't mean that one person is infallible, -- far from it -- but mid-battle is not the place to try and test your own initiative.

Also, if you're going to play a warrior, There are a couple things that you could be doing to be a greater asset to the team. Repeat after me: Warriors in PvP are not tanks and don't need to have a called target in order to attack. As a warrior, when we meet a team at the flag stand that first time, you should do 2 things: 1, pick a target of your own to start building adrenaline (just don't overextend); 2, look through the enemy team ranks while your charcter is swinging away by tabbing through them and seeing what they're putting up against us. You're on the front lines so you've got the best view of the action. If you see a necro using Tainted Flesh, point it out (something along the lines of "their #5 is using Tainted Flesh"). Same goes with any monk secondary -- watch them for a hard res (i.e. non-signet) skill. If you see a /Mo using Res Chant, say so.

This is an easy way you can help the target caller be more aware of what's going on since they can't and won't be able to see everything. It also lets your back line monks know what they're going to have to be dealing with in order to keep the team alive. For example, you've got a better view of who they're going to try and spike. If you watch the direction their characters point when they start to attack/cast, you'll notice that they face the opponent they're spiking. You can call that over TS if you can figure out who's in that direction and in range (say something like "watch 3" if you think they're targetting our #3 player). Even if you can't see who they're facing, you can say something like "spike coming" and it will give the monks a split second extra time to get ready for the incoming damage.

Edit: worded that somewhat better.

[Xyngynkynyn]

Sorry you guys had to play with one short but mother nature was harsh that day. It took almost 2 days to restore power in my area. Hopefully they'll be no more of that next week.