RB Pitboss #2 - Postgame Discussion Thread

[sunrise089]

I agree with darrell - for whatever reason Byzantium and India are reading all of the threads as soon as the game ends, and maybe India's very high quality thread is getting sadly overlooked by the other players.

@Sullla - One comment about spoilers, after you guys spotted the initial enemy stack, and before Rome arrived on the scene, Dr. Nomadic posted something like "you need to at least consider the possibility that if four civs are attacking you five might." Now I know that wasn't specifically a "COW-is-coming" spoiler, but that's the kind of incredibly misguided post that made us in the lurker thread get worked up.

[Sullla]

LOL, do you think we paid any attention to even one post from Dr. Nomadic?!?

[sunrise089]

LOL, do you think we paid any attention to even one post from Dr. Nomadic?!?

Probably not But I just wanted to offer a concrete example of the type of post that concerned people. I'm not weighing in on whether the level of concern was warranted or not, but I think we can all agree posts like Dr. Nomadic made were over the line regardless of whether they impacted your play or not.

[Shoot the Moon]

Only one way to find out .

I am kind of surprised Sulla is the only one commenting on opponents' threads. Just the thought of getting into those PBEM2 threads had me salivating until all the damn...err I mean all the wonderful lurkers asked us to continue the game. At least read the India thread, after all they did hand everyone their collective ass (except us, cause we were already dead) and with the excruciating detail in which they documented every single turn, you can see exactly how. Just make sure you wear flame retardant clothing .

Darrell

Well, reading the Sulla's thread takes a whole lot longer than reading say Dantski's. If others haven't responded by next weekend, I think it might be more reasonable to ask that question then.

In regards to the lurker/spoiler comments: I think it's also worth pointing out that a fair number of the spoiler comments were caught in the lurker thread and edited out (hopefully before the team could see them). It's probably worth reading the lurker thread (and thus seeing the unedited version quoted) t before having a large discussion on the issue. Also for some of the comments about spoilers that Krill made in your thread he explained more thoroughly (at least as I remember) in the lurker thread.

[Dr. Nomadic]

Probably not But I just wanted to offer a concrete example of the type of post that concerned people. I'm not weighing in on whether the level of concern was warranted or not, but I think we can all agree posts like Dr. Nomadic made were over the line regardless of whether they impacted your play or not.

Oops.

There's a reason why I wasn't posting as often for a good while. Well, part of it was that I somehow could not log into my account.

I'll admit that I was too worried about you guys dying off, and then the game turning into "everyone gang up on the strongest team!". Unfortunately, when a team looks like it's so far ahead something has to be done. But I agree that the CoW attack was silly. However, I think that things would've been harder for you guys if:

-The attack was coordinated well.
-The enemies brought siege weapons.
-The enemies all waited until they had better developed their own civilizations.

[SevenSpirits]

Oops.

There's a reason why I wasn't posting as often for a good while. Well, part of it was that I somehow could not log into my account.

This is by far the most hilarious thing I've read today.

[Issus]

Oops.

There's a reason why I wasn't posting as often for a good while. Well, part of it was that I somehow could not log into my account.

I'll admit that I was too worried about you guys dying off, and then the game turning into "everyone gang up on the strongest team!". Unfortunately, when a team looks like it's so far ahead something has to be done. But I agree that the CoW attack was silly. However, I think that things would've been harder for you guys if:

-The attack was coordinated well.
-The enemies brought siege weapons.
-The enemies all waited until they had better developed their own civilizations.

Please.
Shut up.
You have said this like a billion times before.
So please.
Shut up.

[Jowy]

Was that really necessary?

[Sullla]

I read through Korea's thread pretty quickly, and then it's time for me to get some sleep...



- I'm definitely surprised that you didn't move to a northern spot, which could have captured double irrigated wheat tiles. I mean, you do give up the furs, but irrigated wheat is much better than clams, plus you would be gaining more forest tiles and more grassland river tiles. Especially so since Korea doesn't start with Fishing and couldn't do a work boat immediately out of the gate... It also would have been hilarious to see your team move east, and Rome move west, towards each other!

- Considering how close Rome was, I'm *REALLY* glad it was your team that started in the south and not ours! You probably had the toughest situation in the whole game, in terms of neighbors. I think you handled it pretty well, all things considered, especially without copper at the start. My one reaction would be that 60 turns wasn't a good number to choose for an NAP. That's more or less how long it takes to research Iron Working, so LiPing was pretty much advertising "I plan to attack you the minute I have Praetorians." That said, you were in an extremely difficult situation, and I have no idea how I would have played things. You could have done much worse, no question.



- Why settle the second city on this spot? I could see going one tile south (for the hill defensive bonus, given your neighbor), but if settling on flat ground, the spot one tile east seems a lot stronger, as it picks up the cows too. I guess that the advantage in the current spot is having wheat immediately in range (no need for a border pop), not sure that outweighs having another food resource though. Hmmmm.



- I had no idea that Korea rushed out a settler to one of the outer islands to gain copper access! That was masterful, just brilliant stuff. You had to first identify the copper (with a scouting workboat), then get the requisite Sailing tech + galley + settler, speed them all along with chops, and then put it all together before Whosit attacked. Even though the axes weren't enough to stop Whosit's initial attack, that island city made an enormous difference in this game (as the future Great Lighthouse location). Unbelievably good stuff, plako. I can't say enough good things about this play.

- One minor change that would have helped would have been to research Masonry and whip/chop walls in the threatened cities. 50% defense versus 20% defense makes a big difference. Saved our bacon when everyone attacked, as we had walls in all of the border cities.

- In retrospect (and this probably would require an omniscient level of knowledge that no one could have had ahead of time), it's a shame that Pyongyang wasn't one tile south. Then it would have been on the hill, and 4 tiles away from Wonson, such that you could have had your axe stack halfway between the cities, able to reinforce both of them. As I said, probably impossible to see ahead of time, but makes sense in hindsight. Planting cities 4 tiles apart does help if you think you're going to be attacked.

-The Empire gains Wonsan.
-The Empire gains settling rights North of Wonsan and North of Nar Shaddaa.
-The Empire will not settle West of Nar Shaddaa.
-The Empire may match, but not exceed, Korean Espionage Points.
-NAP until Turn 150.

- I think you got really great terms from Whosit for peace (because he was so eager to charge off and attack India, ha!) All of us assumed that you were finished, certainly including my team, but those islands were more powerful than we thought. I doubt any of us realized how many effects this deal would have in the long run.

- It was pleasant to read some email correspondences with a team that wasn't planning a secret attack on us for a change. I'm very happy that we were able to form a strong alliance that lasted to the end of the game, even if we never directly collaborated militarily. It's funny that we started our cooperation around Turn 100, when our civs were basically the world pariahs! Didn't think at that point we would be the top civs at the end of the game, that's for sure...

- On a related note, plako and I both noticed that Dantski and slaze rarely seemed to initiate much diplomacy. They would respond to messages, but didn't take up new ideas on their own very often. That made it hard to form a counter alliance of four teams to combat Holy Rome/Ottomans/Rome/Greece.

- Reclaiming the mainland from Whosit must have been an amazing feeling, after all that time "in exile" on the islands. What reference fits best here: Charles II returning to England in 1660? MacArthur in the Philippines during World War II? The Count of Monte Cristo? Take your pick.

- Reading the diplomacy going on with Holy Rome (trying to broker a peace between Korea and Rome), I think Whosit really misplayed this situation. Whosit's refusal to give up a city for peace, despite the major problems going on with his two-front war, ultimately led to his demise. Basically, he wasn't willing to take the same sort of deal that Korea took to ensure survival earlier. The reversal of fortune must have been delicious for your team...

India is the big dog. Sulla and Speaker are very good and not likely to make a mistake. I believe we are better served focusing on expanding though whosit and anyone who attacks them. I believe they will treat us honestly and not backstab us. If in the unlikely event we get to a position where we have a chance to win this we could re evaluate the relationship but I believe this gives us the best opportunity.

The alternitive is to join the pack against them who have shown themselves as opportunistic and willing to turn on each other at the drop of a hat. Not a good enviroment for us to grow back into contention.

- I really liked this post.



- Hard to believe there was so much conflict over this tiny corner of the Donut...

- I see there was some discussion of switching sides and helping Nakor at the end of the game (Speaker's paranoia towards Korea at that time wasn't completely unfounded, it seems). But I'm glad that you ultimately left things alone "as is" without changing the diplo setup. There would have been some angry posts in our thread if Korea had changed sides, let me tell you.

So hats off to a tremendous game, played under REALLY tough conditions with Aggressive Rome so close next door. On a final note, I loved the abundance of screenshots in this thread. Made it very easy to follow what was going on. I'd rather have ~500 posts and a ton of screenshots than ~1000 text-heavy posts with few images.

[Nakor]

Hey Sullla, I'm reading your thread, but with 2 kids running around 200+ pages is a lot. I'm currently at page 69 and am impressed with your micromanagement skills. I'm sure you out-thought everyone in that aspect.

I was a bit surprised by your angry reaction to Kathlete lying to you before attacking Byz. You said you'd never trust them again in the entire game. From what I read you were lying to others as well... But I'll have to read if that assumption is correct.