New EitB PBEM?

[DaveV]

More seriously, there are some questions I need answers to, because they tend to depend on what people enjoy. Most of them are things that are fair no matter which you pick, but will greatly affect the style of game regardless. If you guys don't weigh in, I'll pick whatever I'd enjoy most, but ultimately the map should be a backdrop for your game, rather than a showcase for my skillz.

Size: Probably best to define this in terms of tiles/player, or cities/player, although official size matters too for Kurios. This affects the era in which most of your fighting will occur.

Serdoa's 250 tiles/player upthread sounds about right.

Water: Pangaea? Lakes? Tiny Islands? Hardly any?

Tough balancing act here. I'd like some seafood and lighthousable bodies of water, otherwise ORG loses some of its ability. Also, pearls and whales are a nice reward for researching Sailing. But players should also be able to build capitals that are not adjacent to water if they're paranoid about Tsunami. I think Commodore did a great job on the pitboss map; there's water and seafood, but it doesn't demand OO.

Lushness: Resource density, grass/plains ratio, desert/tundra amounts, etc. People generally prefer lusher maps, I've found, but I do want to include enough plains to make Aristocracy not the obvious only choice.

Sounds good to me. I'd like some good commerce/happy specials and key military resources in easy reach for all players.

FFH specifics? Can I use marsh, ancient forest, scrubs, lairs, huts, etc? Thoughts on Unique Features? What about pre-improved tiles, typed mana, etc? Generally sounds like you'd be ok with the minor stuff like marsh and ancient forests, but would want me to stay away from the others.

Marsh sucks. I hate it. Pillageable improvements would give a boost to early economy, but would give extra strength to Raiders trait. Consensus seems to be against lairs and huts. Unique features are fun, as long as no one starts with Patria + Yggsdrasil .

Special terrain for special civs: do I give elves forest, Lanun coast, Illians snow? Or just ignore that and let people get all have about the same? May I ban a civ, after making the map, if I think they'd be OP, or should I instead try to balance it after you pick? Or neither, and let a clever pick get a T0 advantage?

I'm in favor of everyone starting with pretty much the same stuff. I agree with Serdoa that the map should be set up before the civs are picked, and people should deal with what they get.

Seeing starts before picking?

No.

[gtAngel]

I definitely don't want to play with ingame balance changes beyond the new dll, since it would be a huge hassle.

I don't particularly like banning civ/leader combos either, so I'll put a vote against it. It's not a deal-breaker for me though.

I would also prefer not to wait too long to start, so unless we know v10 is coming out soon I'd rather just start on v9.

[Mardoc]

Alright, I think I have a mandate. Let me know if I'm misunderstanding or missing anything.

As a summary: you want a map that fades into the background, where the only thing that determines who wins is how you play. The interesting part for a lurker is your decisions rather than my world. Fortunately for you, that's pretty much what I wanted to make anyway.

Details:

• Make the map before you pick civs (or at least trying to ignore civs if you guys can't wait)
  
• Aim for a map that's balanced no matter who you pick, more or less. Therefore not excessively forested, nor all floodplains, nor all that much water.
  
• Lakes style map (although probably not that exact script), less water than circumnav, just enough to let Fishing and sailing have a purpose
  
• Cylindrical, Deity difficulty
  
• Fairly big, 200-250 land tiles/player
  
• Natural looking - at least enough that you have to scout to know what's there, rather than just seeing a pattern.
  
• No huts, no lairs, no gimmicks
  

Still under discussion:

• See starts before picking?
  
• Quick start bonus or not, and what type if any?
  

As a proposal, instead of giving you each a Shade or worker or first few techs - suppose I just aim for very lush capitals? Lots of riverside tiles, lots of food, varied early commerce tiles (like maybe a wines + gold + dye). Or, slightly gimmicky, but less than a Shade - what if you each started with a Town?

I should be able to start soon, likely tomorrow evening. Not sure how long it'll take - depends on my free time I suppose.

[Ichabod]

I think Immortal difficulty is enough, no need for deity.

My votes are:

See start before pick: No

Ways to boost the early game: None, let's just play the base game. Like Serdoa pointed out, if we are inflating the difficulty to make expansion slower, it's contraditory to speed up the early game. I don't think we need extra lush capitals, I'd just take care to make them not that tech dependent (that's basically saying that an all forest start or a AH-only food start should be avoided, since they are very crippling for some, if not all, civs).

[HidingKneel]

Can I ask when will you know if you can really commit, HK?

I think I'll just lurk.

[Ichabod]

Can I ask when will you know if you can really commit, HK?

I think I'll just lurk.

That's a pity.

Well, so it seems we have another vacant place in the game. Any other takers?

[Ichabod]

So, proposed ruleset so far:

Game Speed: Quick

Difficulty: Immortal/Cylindrical or Emperor/Toroidal

Diplomacy: AI Diplo, with some specifics. Tech trading is off.

Raging Barbarians – OFF

Wildlands – OFF

Orthus – OFF

Acheron – OFF

Huts - OFF

Lairs – OFF

Hyborem/Basium – No new players

Banned Leaders:

a) Beeri Baul of the Luchuirp
b) Vollana of the Svartalfar
c) Amelanchier of the Ljosalfar
d) Keelyn of the Balseraphs
e) Perpentach of the Balseraphs
f) Falamar of the Lanun

---

Things we need to clarify yet:

1. Diplo: There was some talk about making Ai Diplo with some other pre-defined options. It seems that was the winning option. So we need to clarify this rule. Serdoa proposed an interesting thing: you can only proposed deals that you can propose to the AI in a SP game. So, that'd be:

a) You can propose that player A declares war on player B.

b) You can propose that player A stops trading with player B.

c) You can propose that a player changes his religion/civics.

You can offer gold, cities or resources to pay for these things. I'd say it's best if no justification can be given to why you are proposing something. You can only send a message to the desired player in your turn: "Declare war on X for this resource or that gold". But you can't say anything like "he's running away with the game" or similar.

2. Since events will be ON, due to technical difficulties, we need to decide if we want Living World or not.

3. Map. Mardoc made a very good post about the map above and I think everyone is ok with his choices. He asked us to decide on these two issues, though:

a) See starts before picking?

b) Quick start bonus or not, and what type if any?

---

We are one player short again, by the way. So, if anyone can help us finding another player, that'd be good.

[DaveV]

1. Diplo: There was some talk about making Ai Diplo with some other pre-defined options. It seems that was the winning option. So we need to clarify this rule. Serdoa proposed an interesting thing: you can only proposed deals that you can propose to the AI in a SP game. So, that'd be:

a) You can propose that player A declares war on player B.

b) You can propose that player A stops trading with player B.

c) You can propose that a player changes his religion/civics.

You can offer gold, cities or resources to pay for these things. I'd say it's best if no justification can be given to why you are proposing something. You can only send a message to the desired player in your turn: "Declare war on X for this resource or that gold". But you can't say anything like "he's running away with the game" or similar.

I like this, and agree that the messages should be limited to something like "Declare war on Bannor", "Stop trading with Bannor", "Change religion to Ashen Veil", or "Change civics to Slavery". Further suggestions:

* You can't ask player A to declare war on player B unless you're already at war with player B
* No cute stuff with unit names, city names, etc. Other players' motives are ambiguous, and the only clue is their behavior and their offers

2. Since events will be ON, due to technical difficulties, we need to decide if we want Living World or not.

No. I disagree with the premise that Living World gives the RNG more chances to even things out. I think it just gives it more chances to screw me over.

3. Map. Mardoc made a very good post about the map above and I think everyone is ok with his choices. He asked us to decide on these two issues, though:

a) See starts before picking?

No.

b) Quick start bonus or not, and what type if any?

I like Mardoc's proposal of just having super duper capitals.

[DaveV]

Another thing to discuss: victory conditions. All enabled? Disable Tower of Mastery?

[Serdoa]

* You can't ask player A to declare war on player B unless you're already at war with player B

Fine with all the diplo-stuff except for what I quoted here. I think it is perfectly fine to ask this. If another player is willing to go to war without you being involved as well thats fine. But at the same time, you can't make sure that he really goes to war and isn't just declaring a phony war. Of course that does destroy the trade-routes and might hurt his standing with that player but thats basically it.

What I do think needs to be agreed upon is that you have to do what you agree to. So if you are paid 100 gold to declare war on X you can't just take the 100 gold and not declare war. Same as with AIs, the turn you get the gold, you declare war, change religion/civic etc.

No. I disagree with the premise that Living World gives the RNG more chances to even things out. I think it just gives it more chances to screw me over.

I'm fine with either setting but if I can choose I agree with Dave on this.

a) See starts before picking?

Yes. But more because I'd rather take the time before we start than when I get the save to do my sims.

b) Quick start bonus or not, and what type if any?

Don't need any. Stronger capitals are fine, but I'd rather not have those overdone either tbh. There should be reasons to expand, especially as Sidar are not banned.