Civ 5 We Hardly Knew Ye [Spoilers]

[Ichabod]

Here's an initial dotmap, to show where I want to place cities. I'm aware that some of this spots are inelegible due to distance, but this is just an initial idea. I like the city on the desert, near the gold, because it gets lots of hills in the initial circle of tiles, which is needed for a good liberty city. Unfortunately, it can't be put there, if we settle the city near the bananas/stone/gold. Perhaps if we settle that city 1SW, we could then place the norther gold city on the desert. But that march plant is too darn close to Pindicator and it's more difficult to defend... Well, not overly so, since the jungles and marsh to the south will really hinder any unit attacking. Anyway, I'll think about it some more.



I started on a worker. Main reason is that, with the settler coming soon, I will be unhappy when settling the second city, without an improved resource. In that sense, building a granary now would mean just losing that extra food down the road. Besides, I plan to stagnate at size 4, to start pushing for settlers, so a granary food would be "wasted" on settler building. All things considered, a worker + warrior before growing seems to be my best option, for now.

Besides, with that worker, I can speed up the southern gold city by 1 turn. Anyone can guess how I'll do it? With these 2 screenshots above, I think it's already possible to answer.



On turn 11, I revealed Pindicator's size 3 Capital with my scout. Everyone seems to have an unique calendar resource avaiable (cotton for me, dyes for Pindi, wine for Davey), which really puts a dent into my plan to settle aggressively, since I'll likely suffer diplomatic consequences. Anyway, I missed that screenshot due to some steam malfunction, so I can only give you this screenshot, that shows that I'll be able to backtrack my warrior in time to escort my settler (if my maths aren't wrong, that is).

[Rowain]

I would say forget about the city by banana,gold stone and settle the others. Yes it is a nice city-side but it is also nested in pindis and davys expansion path. And I would prefer those 2 go and fight each other over a spot than those 2 going for a joint war against the aggressive settling Ichabod . If we get the other circles we are already on 7 cities and Wellington with its silver would make a nice 8th.

In that light I would settle the one near the cow first (to block pindi ) and then the one on the desert. (the free GP going into Petra is an idea).

[T-hawk]

Question for the lurkers: can I build circuses in 2 different cities based on the same horse/ivory tile?

No. You don't even get a choice.  You can only build the circus in the city that originally acquired the horse tile.

[Ichabod]

I would say forget about the city by banana,gold stone and settle the others. Yes it is a nice city-side but it is also nested in pindis and davys expansion path. And I would prefer those 2 go and fight each other over a spot than those 2 going for a joint war against the aggressive settling Ichabod . If we get the other circles we are already on 7 cities and Wellington with its silver would make a nice 8th.

In that light I would settle the one near the cow first (to block pindi ) and then the one on the desert. (the free GP going into Petra is an idea).

I was also considering conquering Wellington. That means attacking to steal a worker and than just keeping at war until we conquer it (2 war decs on CSs give maluses with all the other CSs).

You have a point about the distant city. I still have some time before I have to make a decision, so I'll think more about it. The Petra idea is also interesting, but Petra there would pretty much mean only a free caravan, since only 2 tiles would become really good with it (and in that sense, Colossus might very well be better).

Thanks, chumchu and T-Hawk, for the answer.

[Ichabod]

It's a decent city, alright. Hopefully it gets some of those hills in tis borders before we take it. I know I keep talking about hills inside borders, hills inside borders. Thing is, hills take a long, long time to be favoured by the border expansion AI. But the liberty MP game hinges on getting a production lead over the Tradition empires, during the mid game, so we need those hills. The problem gets tougher when you take into account that liberty empires suffer from lack of gold (due to more improvements accross cities) and lack of culture (again, weaker cities have less culture), so you'll get very few hills inside your borders other than the ones you settle within your initial 6 tiles. Remember, buying tiles with gold gets more expensive depending on how the AI favours the tile, so settling for hills and buying food is way less expensive than settling food and buying hills.



Not many news in these past turns, which is good for us. I really hope no one beats us to the second patheon, because the earlier we get God King, the better. Things is, I really doubt anyone will compete against us for that pantheon. I see better options for everyone else (faith and culture from wines to Davey, culture from plantations to Pindi), while my options are pretty limited.

It seems obvious now that each player got one of the calendar resources in its Capital region (there's 6 calendar resources that are very similar, + citrus and cocoa, which are generally better). That favours a lot the 2 players that got Incense and Wines, because they get a specific pantheon, which is way better than the one that gives +1 culture to plantations. Not only it gives faith, but it also, and that is very important in Civ 5, doesn't require an improvement to get the bonus. As you'll see, it takes like a billion years to improve land in Civ 5. Workers are very slow and very costly (when you can't buy them using AI money, can't steal from neighbours as easily), so bonuses that get added straight to the resource are way better than the ones connected to an improvement (+food from camps is way worse than +food from citrus, wheat, banana; +faith from gems is way better than +faith from quarries -> obviously, I'm considering similar amount of resources here).

The plantation pantheon also suffers from the fact that you need to work the tile to get the bonus (and working plantations is generally not very good, albeit better on liberty cities, that you don't plan to grow that much). With the resource pantheon, at least you get the bonus by just settling cities on top of it.

The other option I see for a patheon for myself is the faith from quarries, since my current settling plan will likely have 2 stone tiles early and +1 a bit later. But when you take into account that I need to tech masonry and get a worker to improve those tiles, which are not luxury tiles, so not that high priority, you'll see that I'll start getting the bonus very, very late (while God King is +5 yields from the get go). Desert Folklore is so imbalanced that even here it would be a decent faith generating pantheon.

I guess I just need to accept that I'll have to generate faith the old fashioned way, by getting shrines.



I hope Davey isn't thinking about messing around here. I doubt he suspects I'll get a worker so early, but he may notice that I have 2 policies on Liberty already and decide to mess with my free settler. Again, I doubt it, I think he will favour scouting more, but who knows... By the way, I hate how vision works in Civ 5, where you don't get the terrain vision bonus from your cities borders. And in a game where most units have 2+ movements, too... That's annoying, it's too easy to be surprised from the fog.



More scouting. There's a city state northeast, so I'll go there next.

[T-hawk]

I know I keep talking about hills inside borders, hills inside borders. Thing is, hills take a long, long time to be favoured by the border expansion AI.

This is right, yes, hills inside the first ring of borders are very important for Liberty and still matter even for Tradition.

liberty empires suffer from lack of gold (due to more improvements accross cities)

This isn't so true.  Liberty empires don't get that many more buildings.  The lack of gold is from missing Monarchy and all the free-stuff cost savers in Tradition.

and lack of culture (again, weaker cities have less culture)

This isn't true at all in BNW.  Liberty empires get more culture thanks to the opener.  In BNW, with the culture line of buildings so nerfed, every city builds a monument and none build anything else.  The differences in culture are in Liberty's favor via the opener once you have at least 4 cities and they've built their monuments.

But you're right that Liberty cities do acquire fewer tiles, because of lacking the Tradition opener, which makes a serious difference in border expansion cost, it's like half after 4 or so tiles.

[Ichabod]

I really appreciate the fact check, T-Hawk. When I ramble, I end up saying things that are just plain wrong. I actually already reached the same conclusion about tradition vs. liberty gold (with the free buildings + monarchy you pointed out being the difference), just failed to remember it. But you opened my eyes about the tradition opener, I never realized it makes the border expansion less expensive (I actually thought it only gave +3 culture in the Capital)! So, that's why liberty suffers so much with border expansion. Like you've said, culture is really nerfed in BNW, so I never really quite grasped why Tradition got that many more tiles than Liberty. It all makes sense now.

[Ichabod]

I'm having computer problems, so playing this last few turns was a bit of a problem. I installed civ 5 in my old computer and the poor thing almost dies trying to run it. But, for now, we soldier on.



I met a third city state, Kuala Lampur. I really, really hope this map is not divided in 2 continents of 3 players each. Things will be decided on a 2 vs. 1 if that's the case, which I really don't think males up for an interesting game. Well, I'll do my best with what was given, and I appreciate chumchu's doing it, it's just not a design I'm very much in love with (that's still conjectural at this point, though).



I know I talked about conquering Wellington. But Almaty is a way better city, I think. Hills, food, exactly what I want.



I decided to attack a wounded barb and killed it, but I think that might have been a mistake. It was better to just go out and explore, I think. I fulfilled the mission for Kuala Lampur, but that invading barb mission gives little influence, which will decrease pretty soon. Well, at least I'm just one combat away from the sentry promo, which is pretty nice.



I already played turn 17, where my settler from Collective Rule was born, but couldn't take screenshots. The trick I announced before to speed the second city is the following: the settler from collective rule usually spawns on the bottom left tile of your Capital. If that was the case, it would take six turns to reach the hill tile where I wanted to settle. But, by occupying the bottom left tile with a civilian unit, like a worker, it makes the settler spawn on the bottom right, which enables me to reach the hill I want (or most other places) one turn faster, five turns in this case. And I did just that, spawning the settler before moving my worker to the cotton tile.

Right now, I'm one turn from finishing a second warrior (to defend the worker), one turn from a pantheon and one turn from size 4. At size 4, we'll start settlers, boosted by collective rule. My initial plan is get something like 5/6 cities, defining our borders, then finishing National College before expanding again. We'll see how it goes.

[Ichabod]

By the way, I'm considering an early teching to optics, because the map I got from the ruin gives me the impression that island cities will have good land. The lighthouse will give 4f/2h in the Capital, which is pretty nice too.

[Ichabod]

It seems increasingly likely that we are on a small 3 player continent. Well, considering Liberty is in a strong disadvantage when compared to players with the same amount of land, I need to get more than my fair share. I agree with Rowain that the most likely diplomatic repercussion of the banana/stone/gold city is a dogpile happening against me, but I also don't see another way around. If you consider the shape of the land, it seems that that spot is in the center of the continent (only that I moved my Capital further away from it and davey/pindi moved closer), so I think I need to grab it.



Here we go. I'm confident I'll beat everyone to that spot, it's not easy to build quick settler is Civ 5. The way things are looking, I'll probably have 3 cities before anyone else has 2. There's still time to chenge course and go for the safer desert gold city, by the way.



I changed the city to this configuration to get an extra hammer. Even if 1 food is generally better than 1 hammer, I'll likely stay a long time at size 4 building settlers, so that food will take too long to get any gain by growing to size 5. On the other hand, perhaps the extra hammer will mean a 1 turn faster settler or something.