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[SPOILERS] Woden and ljubljana like boats

Okay, well, I sincerely appreciate all of your reassurances smile. Now to try to make TAD pay...uh, somehow lol.

Turn 122 - Phoenicia

Today's big news comes from an unexpected source: Oracle Bones, whose Cothon finishes to apparently add just enough beakers that Cartography is coming a turn early, namely next turn! That could be a real coup in terms of strategic positioning (if we go for Akkad) or simply enabling a northern attack to be viable at all. I immediately pull all the biremes back for mass-upgrades, leading to this:



I also beg you for all of your gold, and would appreciate you sending me your income turn by turn as it comes in for a little while too, at least until you need to upgrade frigates. When that time does come, I will do the reverse, but I think for right now we need as many caravels and frigates with as high a combat strength as we can possibly scrounge together to give this first strike some prayer of success.

Now that we're getting Cartography early, I think your next turn is the right time to send TAD a last-chance DoF offer, since it will arrive just as they see me spend our entire joint treasury on caravels. That is, if we're still going to do that...I do think it's the best play from an "odds to win the game" perspective (sub's war is really going to turn against them as soon as CMF's fleet shows up), but I also understand if the prospect of punishing TAD for their transgressions with eternal war is too compelling to pass up lol.

A few more domestic things: I finish the IA at Cuneiform, which starts a trader. The spy heads to the former Mohenjo-Daro as the most remote city from the front lines, and will take 5 turns to establish there (the same as for any other TAD city except WotW, which would apparently take 7 turns? No clue what the heck is going on there...). I get a governor title, and take Surplus Logistics as the most immediately helpful to the war effort - that's a weird thing to say, but I think it's true, Victor 1 will be pretty useless since TAD can easily just go around whichever city we put him in. Victor is way stronger on land maps, and would be strong in Writing on the Wall, but I think here the incentives don't really favor him as much. I do use the trader in Abjad on a 4f/4h route to Cuneiform to speed the walls along and grow the city onto its hammer tiles for caravels.

All the cities that finished builds this turn (and there were a fair few) start biremes for just this next turn, to put boosted hammers into caravels while we still can (before the 4t interim between Cartography and Press Gangs). Next turn, I'll start Limes walls everywhere, even on the east coast, since I don't want suboptimal getting any ideas, and because I wouldn't be able to boost the hammers if I put them into ships anyways. TAD has done the same in their eastern cities, of course, which I assume will finish just in time to significantly complicate any attempt at a flanking move to the north.



Here is the TAD situation. I think the fact that they've used literally all of their niter this last turn, in conjunction with some still-unupgraded quads at cities right on the border with us, indicates that they're not planning to make a big investment in caravels, and will instead use all those galleys as a meat shield for their frigates. Is that good for us? I don't know...unboosted galleys will melt like wet paper in the face of GA caravels and frigates. On the other hand, it will take a turn to make that happen, which will give TAD a chance to first strike and effectively trade Ancient ships for my Renaissance ones. I think it's a good plan tactically, and am not sure how to engage it besides to use my own biremes and your longships as meat shields against TAD's and hope to trade those off efficiently against the TAD galleys so our Renaissance ships can go in for the kill. On the other hand, on a pound for pound level I am way more scared of any caravels TAD might field than I am of the frigates, which our blob of Embolon caravels should counter just fine unless they manage to concentrate their ships in one place.

I really don't know about this northern attack though, honestly. We don't really know how many ships TAD has up there compared to in the south, and if I were TAD, I would respond to such an attack by trying to stalemate the main Phoenician fleet up north and then throwing all the southern ships at Norway where the Phoenicians can't effectively intervene. I don't know how we could fend something like that off with the limited number of ships we would then have in the area. Maybe the better move is to try to engage one half of TAD's fleet as it tries to make an offensive move or join up with the other half, so that we at least don't have to fight them on their own turf with defensive terrain on their side and a hail of city fire to worry about. That would favor a first strike at Writing on the Wall, and then attacking the ships as they try to move into position to retake the city. If they take too long to do that, I could then occupy the island choke point to the south and try to stall for time until we get Press Gangs in place and can outproduce them.

...at least, I hope we can outproduce them lol. I don't know what their development is like, but I have to imagine we should be able to, even though +50% hammers isn't really a huge advantage (with Press Gangs' +100%, that's just a 5/4 hammer advantage over TAD). I am at least working almost all of my domestic hammer tiles now, with the last few set to come online over the next 20t with border expansions and the traders at Abjad and eventually Linear A/B. Here's hoping that will be enough. Depending on how many domestic TRs I end up with, I might have Cuneiform break from ships for the IZ (which will be doubly-discounted from the usual discount and Phoenicia's ability) even if war is still ongoing, +3 hammers at the capital plus one more in every city with a TR could pay for itself very quickly. Everywhere else will spam ships until we win or die, duh, except perhaps for the last few lighthouses to get more TRs and give Demotic something to do (right now its plan is to do the market next for, yes, another TR).

edit: I hate to say this, but...I wonder if I should just bite the bullet and swap to Oligarchy after we get to Press Gangs, or maybe even next turn. I'd lose 300 beakers and 150 culture, which is bad but of no real military relevance, and 150ish gold (after my gpt craters from all these upgrades), which is just one caravel. I would also lose 3 turns of Press Gangs, which is the biggest loss since it means building caravels at +50% speed rather than +150% speed. It really could be worth it, though, as we are utterly reliant on our caravels to win this war for us and +4 strength on them all would be hugely significant. I somehow forgot to add "no Oligarchic Legacy" to my list of biggest unforced errors this game, but I now feel extremely confident about slotting it in as a firm #2 lol. Honestly, that one policy is just so significant for military success in Civ6 (as I think this game pretty convincingly illustrates), and I can't imagine a future scenario in which I'd ever want to build the AH in any other government going forward.
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(May 6th, 2021, 01:45)ljubljana Wrote: edit: I hate to say this, but...I wonder if I should just bite the bullet and swap to Oligarchy after we get to Press Gangs, or maybe even next turn. I'd lose 300 beakers and 150 culture, which is bad but of no real military relevance, and 150ish gold (after my gpt craters from all these upgrades), which is just one caravel. I would also lose 3 turns of Press Gangs, which is the biggest loss since it means building caravels at +50% speed rather than +150% speed. It really could be worth it, though, as we are utterly reliant on our caravels to win this war for us and +4 strength on them all would be hugely significant. I somehow forgot to add "no Oligarchic Legacy" to my list of biggest unforced errors this game, but I now feel extremely confident about slotting it in as a firm #2 lol. Honestly, that one policy is just so significant for military success in Civ6 (as I think this game pretty convincingly illustrates), and I can't imagine a future scenario in which I'd ever want to build the AH in any other government going forward.

It might be worth 3 turns of anarchy but time is everything. Is it better to do it now and lose limes for wall construction or later and lose out on ship building? Doing it now will get you out of anarchy by the time the war starts and you will probably be able to hold off TAD to finish your walls. Your science rate and income will drop, due to losing the double harbor card. If you are going to do it, I think now is a little better than later, when you are in an active war. Just my 2 cents. 

If you do it next turn, upgrade all you can then make the switch. You will want to upgrade any quads you have, then when in oligarchy, you might be able to live with just Professional Armies, for the reduced cost, since caravels don't cost resources. 

I will send all my gold next turn and keep sending it for the next 3 turns (?). I will need 220Icon_Gold in 5 turns to buy the tiles for my encampments and will need another 160 a few turns after to upgrade a frigate. Then, depending on how the war is going, I might need what I am earning to upgrade some berserkers to increase the defensive strength of my cities and some crossbows for defense.
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Well...on the bright side, it won't matter that my income would drop from losing the double harbor card because it would be zeroed out by the anarchy anyways lol. It would just be 3 turns of anarchy because I have only been in Oligarchy once before, right? That would probably cost me 1.5ish caravels in terms of lost gold and another caravel or two in terms of lost production. That alone is probably worth it for +4 CS on all existing and future caravels, but Limes makes it really awkward since TAD can do a lot of damage in 3 turns with no walls up. I think I'll see what TAD's ships are doing this turn and then decide. I am seriously considering doing that this turn, though, so you may need to act fast if you want to talk me out of it lol.

Oh, wait...on further reading, it sounds like it doesn't zero out my gpt but instead zeroes out my gold income, so my actual gpt would go hugely negative from maintenance costs if I did that. Okay, that is worth a lot more than 1.5 caravels (try 3-4 caravels) and so is very unlikely to be worth it.
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We will have a military alliance that will compensate until they get one, if they won't have one at the start of the war. Maybe it will be better to wait until Exploration is complete. Will you have walls up in your important cities? I can send you all my gold and you can upgrade as much as possible, then might be able to be able to forgo 3 turns of anarchy while your navies clash. And yes, you get 3 turns of anarchy because you already were in oligarchy once before. I think it is a stupid mechanic, even for SP games where the AI hates you because you are not in their favorite government.

Then again, might be better to just get it over with. Do you think you can hold TAD off for a few turns while your cities finish walls once you are out of anarchy?

Edit: Your maintenance costs might make it prohibitive. What is your maintenance costs right now and how many units do you have (I am assuming you are running the maintenance discount card). You don't want to go negative bank because the game will start to delete units.
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I don't know exactly, but after this next turn I will probably have somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 caravels + 4 frigates (52 gpt) plus around 10 biremes/quads (say another 15ish gpt). Luckily, I won't lose much from building maintenance on top of that since I have almost no infrastructure outside of monuments and Cothon buildlings. Still, though, my gpt would probably end up in the -80 range during anarchy, which is a swing of maybe 150 gpt from where I'd be in monarchy (probably around +70, since Cartography buffs my fishing boats to offset the upgrade costs). All told, my estimate is that I will have roughly 3 fewer frigates or caravels in Oligarchy than I would in Monarchy due to the loss of upgrade money - does that seem worth it to you? It might be long-term since we have some expectation of being able to outproduce TAD, but I'm not sure it will improve our odds of surviving TAD's first wave.

I am not sure I could hold TAD off for long enough to finish walls - it depends on whether they come for me right away or stay behind for a few turns for caravel upgrades/for lack of Cartography. If they don't start advancing until 5t from now when they get Cartography, I think I will probably be fine, but if they start positioning for the attack sooner or trying to defend Writing on the Wall, I could be in trouble.

Agreed that anarchy is an obnoxious and overly punitive mechanic - all it really does is punish players for making mistakes like the one I made, and it doesn't even make sense historically (why in the world would revolting to a previously-used form of government be more likely to cause civil strife than adopting an entirely new political system?). It really feels like the designers just wanted to keep anarchy as a concept from past Civ games and needed to find some way to shoehorn it in...
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Definitely not worth it right now. You are most likely going to be outnumbered at the start of the war, so you will need as many ships as you can muster. +4 CS is not worth losing out on the numbers. Maybe after everything is upgraded but not now.
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I just looked at the turn. You are going to need to buy Santa Cruz on your turn, otherwise I can see TAD buying him and then getting an Armada Ironclad. Which will be virtually unstoppable. That could be an 102 CS ironclad (87 armada ironclad, +7 promotion, +3 GA benefit, +5 GA bonus).
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It will cost 470 gold to buy Santa Cruz, which is very pricey - that's 2.5 caravels, and means I'll only be able to upgrade a very underwhelming 6 this turn. It would cost TAD about the same on their turn, though, and if I were in TAD's position I would 100% buy him, so I guess we have to take him ourselves. Ouch. It really hurts to fall even further behind numerically like that, but as you've said, I don't see much choice.

Did you send TAD our last-chance DoF? I still think that's worth doing, we have nothing to lose by offering, and honestly I think the odds of us not only holding TAD off but remaining competitive in the game as well are...possible, but looking increasingly slim.
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I sent both England and Japan friendship offers.

For what it's worth, an armada caravel is probably worth 2 or 3 caravels. It should be able to attack at 79 CS if you use a promoted one and that should be enough to 1-shot an un-promoted frigate...And yes, use him right away for the armada.
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Turn 123 - Phoenicia

Civil Service and Cartography come in, and I offer you an MA, of course. Here's the policy swap:



No Retinues because I am sadly still short on money for Embolon caravels and need to focus on those for the next few turns. Urban Planning as its replacement because several of my cities are sitting on exactly 9 shields per turn, and the extra shield will finish the walls in exactly four turns. That's when I will swap into Press Gangs and start every city on frigates and caravels, naturally.



The bad news: after buying Santa Cruz, the rest of our treasury is worth only 5 caravel upgrades at 180 gold each. So our fleet with which to hold off TAD is 5 embolon caravels and 4 fresh frigates. When war breaks out, that will probably be a grand total of 8 embolon caravels, one of them an armada, and 4 fresh frigates. This is more than half the number of modern ships we can expect to see from TAD, but not all that much more.

The worse news: Yi's ironclad buffed the defensive strength of Writing on the Wall to the mid-60s, where it will probably be impossible to take on the first turn of the war, which means it will probably get its walls up before we can take it. That's a disaster - left alone, this city is a dagger in the heart of Phoenician territory, making it impossible to reposition troops without TAD knowing our every move and severely limiting exactly the tactical flexibility that we need to have a chance in this war. What should we do about this? Do we throw all our frigates at it on the first turn of the war anyways, maybe upgrading a few more at the full niter cost over the next few turns to make it slightly more likely that we will take the city? Or do we give it up and try to do a first strike against some portion of TAD's navy, but while knowing that, in doing so, TAD can be certain they will see us coming if we try to then reposition to defend against an attack from the other side? I was leaning towards the latter before I played the turn, but now I think I'm leaning towards the former - oops, guess revolting into Urban Planning was probably a mistake in that case...Oh well, wasting 20 niter on two full-price frigates is not that much worse than 48 hammers from four turns of UP, especially since, in the 9 hammer cities, we actually effectively gain bonus production by getting to start boosted caravels a turn earlier. At least throwing units at Writing on the Wall will probably pay for itself via pillage yields even if we ultimately fall short on retaking the city.

I assume it's too much to ask to imagine that Santa Cruz will buff our defensive strength as well, right? We're in the mid-50s now, which is fine, but that would buy us a bit more time if it happened...

edit: I forgot to ask you for this, but could I have some more niter on your turn in addition to the gold in case I want to upgrade two full-price frigates? 22 would be lovely if you can spare it, but 2 is totally fine as well if not.

oh, and a big reminder to future me: I have a perfect ship for Santa Cruz, an embolon bireme exactly 1 xp away from the second promotion level and +10 defense against frigates. I need to go find out which one that is, upgrade it if I haven't already, and attach SC to it ASAP.

and a smaller reminder to future me: In 4 turns, we will want to swap Limes for Press Gangs, duh, but we will then face a hard choice between Urban Planning (8 base hammers at the caravel cities will yield a free caravel in 240 / (8 * 2.5) = 12 turns) and Bastions (duh). The latter's probably the favorite, as we will likely have cities under assault sooner rather than later in the course of this war.
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