Realms Beyond Werewolf 2 : Game Thread

[Kyan]

I'm not the seer.

The Truth!!! Don't get used to it though...

I'm not a special role.

LIE #1

I wouldn't have nominated myself for mayor.

LIE #2

I'm a villager.

LIE #3

The owl is a lie.

LIE #4

go find the "Owl"

Not a lie but i fail to see how this could benefit anyone other than the wolves.

They are certainly a much better shot than me.

LIE #5

I just haven't been defending myself since there is so much crazy stuff... secret owl's, seer claims, random lying and revelations from Roland's camp. It is hard to know what to say.

LIE #6. You haven't defended yourself because you were caught red handed and you know it. Sunrise's info may be out there now but the owl is still alive and kicking. Myself and Roland will continue to protect their anonymity. As i said earlier today, once Selrahc dies and is proved to be the devil- i hope you can then accept that the role exists and it's a fool etc.

90% of the time, when someone is caught out lying in games like these, they are a wolf.

LIE #7 Either a wolf, a devil or a villager protecting someone.

Even if I was the devil, I would be scant use to the wolves now.

Agreed. You're gone.

I object to being a sacrifice to the crazy claims of this day. Especially when there are so many layers involved in the accusations against me that I'm sure that it will end up costing us a villager.

LIE #8. Since it's too late to save you, i hope EVERYONE remembers this post in 3 hours time...

[Serdoa]

It depends on whether you believe the owl role. If you do the rapid bandwagon makes as much sense as if a confirmed seer posted at the start of a day phase that he had just nailed a wolf with his ability.

No, as I showed clearly it still doesn't make sense. You do NOT have evidence that he is a wolf, only that he has a night-role. Thats not the same as a successful seer-scry. But somehow there are 12 people not realizing that?

I wish people wouldn't keep characterizing this this way, it's borderline disingenuous. For what I hope is the last time: whether or not the roland camp are wolves/wolf controlled, the Meiz lynch was an attempt at making the best use of limited information, and the outcome does not prove anything. The attempt to lynch selrahc is not the same thing. They have claimed a secret power role, and the only possibilities are that they have this role, that they are wolves, or that the owl is the fool.

That is not true sunrise, thats why you have to state it so often because people call you out on it.

The Meiz lynch was not an attempt at making the best use of limited information. Rather it was a group of people bullying others into lynching an innocent because they did not listen in their self-confidence. Till now there is NO evidence presented why Meiz should have been a wolf. Roland stated he would do that but actually never did. And even that I understand that it won't change anything if they explain it now, I will go on to call people out on that because it is what cost us a day! Yes it is a shame that we lost a villager for it, but what hurts much more is that we lost a day of fruitful discussion. Similar like ... um, today?

Can you explain? I've still not read all of the Day2 posts, but as I recall I only claimed that Meiz was my most likely suspect.

You state yourself that you still catch up on day 2. But that doesn't stop you to defend others - even that you do not know what happened day 2? Sorry, but that is exactly the reason I don't trust you.

[Rowain]

As i said earlier today, once Selrahc dies and is proved to be the devil- i hope you can then accept that the role exists and it's a fool etc.

Not necessarily. A wolf would know the Devil too and could use gain trust by claiming that there is owl-role. Perhaps he told a certain now dead villager that he had followed him on Night 1, gains his trust and entry to the already visible powergroup. Perhaps thanks to careless PM's mails he gets the names of the masons and as a scan reveals sunrise he decide the Devil is no longer good use and delievers him. No one will doubt that Owl ever again until it is too late.

This also explains why Selrahc was sooo weak in his defence. It is necessary that he gets killed and his Devil-role revealed else that plot makes little sense.

Either a wolf, a devil or a villager protecting someone.

Yup on all accounts.

[scooter]

Sunrise - I understand you were gone for awhile and are behind, but I hope you can see why I laughed when I saw these two parts close together:

I wish people wouldn't keep characterizing this this way, it's borderline disingenuous. For what I hope is the last time: whether or not the roland camp are wolves/wolf controlled, the Meiz lynch was an attempt at making the best use of limited information, and the outcome does not prove anything. The attempt to lynch selrahc is not the same thing. They have claimed a secret power role, and the only possibilities are that they have this role, that they are wolves, or that the owl is the fool.

Which was closely followed by you saying:

Can you explain? I've still not read all of the Day2 posts, but as I recall I only claimed that Meiz was my most likely suspect.

The Meiz lynch was really based on pretty flimsy stuff, and I spent a good chunk of time pointing this out, only to be met with Roland telling me that I would be high up on his hit list because disagreeing with him was suspicious. There's some legitimacy to questioning how that day went down, and shooting that down by saying "Meiz was our best bet and we just were wrong" isn't valid honestly, and it shows a lack of understanding of what's been going on.

[haphazard1]

It depends on whether you believe the owl role. If you do the rapid bandwagon makes as much sense as if a confirmed seer posted at the start of a day phase that he had just nailed a wolf with his ability.

But we do not actually have a confirmed seer, do we? The Seer (if I have not missed yet another change to the story we are being fed) has only scried one person so far -- Uberfish, scry showing as a wolf. Yet Uberfish is not the target. So the Seer is unconfirmed, and is going to remain unconfirmed for at least one more day.

The Selrahc lynch is apparently based on an unconfirmed Owl -- a role which may or may not exist, may or may not have a fool, and does not actually distinguish a specific role but only that the target has some nighttime action.

That is a whole lot of ifs, maybes, and "trust me" to be the basis for such a rapid and complete pile on.

I wish people wouldn't keep characterizing this this way, it's borderline disingenuous. For what I hope is the last time: whether or not the roland camp are wolves/wolf controlled, the Meiz lynch was an attempt at making the best use of limited information, and the outcome does not prove anything. The attempt to lynch selrahc is not the same thing. They have claimed a secret power role, and the only possibilities are that they have this role, that they are wolves, or that the owl is the fool.

The fact that the block lynched an innocent is a fact. They claim the best of intentions, just as they claim now to have power roles, scry results, etc. They claim a lot of things, but their results so far do not measure up.

[Selrahc]

Most of Kyan's arguments amount to saying "Nuh Uh". I'll adress the ones that aren't.

If I was the devil, why would I nominate myself for mayor? Maybe a regular wolf might be worth getting the marginal power of the mayor role for the wolf team... But getting the devil in the position is just foolish. If you can give me a reason for that, maybe you'll have a real argument.

but the owl is still alive and kicking

If the owl exists, it is only of use to capture the devil. No other wolf has a night action. The owl would become utterly useless if I was the devil.

If the owl could find any other wolf it would be an insanely unbalanced role. Essentially adding a second seer... It would basically have to be balanced out by additional wolf special roles.

You haven't defended yourself

I have defended myself. Right up until it all went crazy I was defending myself.

After it went crazy, I was just boggled that anyone was willing to believe the silly stuff being claimed. Made up roles, making me out to be something based on inconclusive evidence from that made up role, which is only coming from a proxy.

Either a wolf, a devil or a villager protecting someone.

A devil is a wolf.
A villager protecting someone should not lie. If you lie you are being foolish and leaving holes in your story.
A villager protecting someone should refuse to give out information in most cases. If someone asks you something, don't lie. Just refuse to answer. that is fine.
In a few cases, a villager might need to infiltrate a wolf network or pose as a power role to eat a night kill. I would say though that these legitimate villager lies are less than 10% of all lies though.


Creating false data creates suspicion and gives room for werewolves to hide. If things are simple and true, werewolves are seen more easily. Do not lie or reveal unneeded data it if it can possibly be helped.

Agreed. You're gone.

Well no. Because everyone in the village had an attack of over complexity, and threw out all their data as it all unravelled. So the wolves have no need to scry for anyone.

[Roland]

I don't have any time for this - probably won't be back until it's all too late - but the bottom line is this:

Either -
Selrahc is lying.
The Owl is lying.
The Seer is lying.

One or more of those is true - I have to determine, for myself if no one else, which one(s).

This is what I know:
- Luddite brought the Owl into the network.
- Luddite was killed the following Night.
- The Owl claimed he saw Selrahc follow Sunrise in the night.
- The Owl and Sunrise got together, and the Owl formed this plan - asking me to be a proxy, a martyr.

Everything since then is pure chaos, but I can only see 1 good way to resolve this, and that's lynching Selrahc. I don't like it, I don't like any of it, but at this point we either ignore EVERYTHING that's happened and find someone else, or we go with this. If Selrahc is innocent, the Owl was lying and we lynch him. If he's not, we have determine whether Sunrise is lying.

You all do what you want. I'm done leading anyone. Everything I built died with Luddite. From here on out I act alone. I know why I'm doing what I'm doing. Everyone else has their own reasons.

I've had enough. I'm following the best course I know. Even if I go after someone else, someone who I personally have had suspicions about, it will be a wasted vote. Besides, Selrahc may live and then I have NO way of knowing who is lying - period. Which loses another day.

I hate how this has gone down. I hate everything about everything from Day 2 onward. I'm going to try to get myself back on track. The rest of you do as you will - I'm done being a leader and a fall guy.

[Selrahc]

I don't have any time for this - probably won't be back until it's all too late - but the bottom line is this:

Either -
Selrahc is lying.
The Owl is lying.
The Seer is lying.

The Seer has nothing to do with this. It is me versus the unnamed owl.

[Kyan]

If I was the devil, why would I nominate myself for mayor? Maybe a regular wolf might be worth getting the marginal power of the mayor role for the wolf team... But getting the devil in the position is just foolish. If you can give me a reason for that, maybe you'll have a real argument.

Easy. Because then you can use THIS VERY ARGUMENT to try and defend yourself.

If the owl exists, it is only of use to capture the devil. No other wolf has a night action. The owl would become utterly useless if I was the devil.

Surely the wolves visit someone at night.. to eat them. Surely thats obvious?

If the owl could find any other wolf it would be an insanely unbalanced role. Essentially adding a second seer... It would basically have to be balanced out by additional wolf special roles.

Sure, want to do one helpful thing before you're lynched and let us know about any secret roles you may have?

[Roland]

Yes, ultimately for me it boils down to either you Selrahc or the Owl. One or the other.

You find me a better way to sort through this, and I'll consider it seriously. We have just under 2 hours. Unfortunately, I have to work, so I may not even have that. I've been wracking my brain over this for two days - hence my silence - and it's the best I can come up with. Enlighten me if you know better.