Nothing like the Prodigal Sons: The Odd Couple actually play as themselves.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

All really big things are wasteful.

...said no woman ever..





Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[spacetyrantxenu]

I don't mind inefficiency so long as they're not trying to kill everyone.
/politics

So if they are trying to kill everyone, you absolutely insist on total efficiency ?

I think this was taken beautifully out of context. Very nicely done!

[Oxyphenbutazone]

This may be the longest internet conversation about politics that hasn't divulged into rants about Ayn Rand and racial slurs. Surely Godwin's law still applies...

[spacetyrantxenu]

Maybe the Kanyes will rap about that?

[Kanye West]

All the smart people have probably already blocked me, but it had to be said:

[Brian Shanahan]

We should do what Venezuela and Bolivia has done, and embark on an aggressive nationalization of private industries...it has been so free of scandal and done such wonders for their economy. Surely Kanye has an opinion on this .

Darrell

The Venezuelan economy has grown a lot better over the course of the last thirteen years than the US economy, granted it has large oil deposits in a period of high prices, but then again so does the US. Now I'm not advocating that the profit motive should be done away with (yet, long term I hope humanity grows up enough to discard it), but the fact of the matter is the period where humanity showed the greatest progress was also the period of (on a global scale) most intense public and government interference in private enterprise, heavily curtailing what private enterprise could and could not do.

Capitalism in its purest form is a self-destructive system, with an event horizon of circa 30-60 years (thirty for the period between the Thatcherite/Reaganite deregulation and the current depression, of which we're far from out of; and 60 for the period between the Great Depression of the mid to late 1870's and the one of the late 1920's and 1930's)

Lol, americans and europeans talking about corruption. Noobs...

There is no corrupt thing that any other nation can invent today that an Irish man hasn't perfected 200 years ago.

[Gaspar]

t67 - There's a shadow just behind me

I played this turn with a banging headache, so apologies for both limited photos and insight, but I am trying to return to reporting every turn...

So there were two noteworthy things this turn. Firstly, Gavagai is turning that food into an army. I actually think in a vacuum an ancient age army isn't as terrible as normal, because tech pace is just awful here. It is probably that which allows the others to think they're competing. If we were in with much hope of the long term, the lack of cottages we have (3 currently) would be really worrying me. As is, we do what we can do. Anyway, here's visual proof:



We also had a barb warrior mosey up to Iran Contra again. This will unfortunately force us to both move the spear away from monitoring Burgundian and waste a worker turn, as the worker who was roading the forest will have to stop.




We went ahead and whipped an Axeman in Plame which will overflow to a Skirmisher. We also complete a Skirmisher in the capital this turn. Units are just going to have to be constant build until something more serious breaks with us and Gavagai. Unfortunately, we're decidedly on the back foot here, so all we can really do is react. Maybe later...

Here's a slightly botched demo picture. Like I said, I had a bad headache.



Also... Ooh, Santi Cazorla.

[Gaspar]

t68 - OUR WORDS ARE BACKED BY MODERN ARMOR

So this turn was mostly us deciding to take a late run at Oracle and how to do so. This late run is 100% due to Gavagai turning on research. While we wouldn't have been heartbroken if, say, ad hoc had built Oracle in the last 10t we absolutely can't let Gavagai build it. So we're going to try and build it. Who knows how it goes...

Anyway, I'll post a few overview shots and then include our excessively lengthy chat about the turn, trimmed down slightly for entertainment purposes.

Gaspar:
oh right
that was it
loading the game
no news is good news i guess
no wonders/religions/otherwise
gavagai is teching, med due in 2
NobleHelium:
ok, heh
let's see that oracle build in the cap
what about the barb war
Gaspar:
his warrior has shown up on the tile boldly wanted us to found on
barb war moved to the forest SE of iran
NobleHelium:
overview pic?
Gaspar:
burgundian still size 1
let me go thru my paces first
then ill get you a pic
NobleHelium:
ok
well move the spear into iran
Gaspar:
no new city from gavagai
NobleHelium:
before anything else
Gaspar:
no other newly visible units
only power growth from g is pop
someone has an 82 gnp ; ;
NobleHelium:
hmm ok
so let's give the hamlet back to plame
and see how many turns it takes to build oracle at the cap
Gaspar:
9t
NobleHelium:
growth in 2t still?
Gaspar:
yep
NobleHelium:
k well
let's assume we slow build a worker at plame at size 4
i guess the cap will work both forests at size 6 let's say
do we still grow next turn if we give away the second fp and work the pfh?
Gaspar:
no
NobleHelium:
but we would if we work the grass forest
can we do a spreadsheet
oracle this and next turn
then swap to worker, add pfh
whip worker into oracle
Gaspar:
im not stopping you
NobleHelium:
i'm not going to do a spreadsheet if you're the one in the game
Gaspar:
the workload this game is not equitably distributed
NobleHelium:
well get out of the game and i will do a sheet then
ok
whipping a worker doesn't speed things up
Gaspar:

is it the same?
NobleHelium:
no, it'll be at least a turn slower
we get 18h overflow out of the worker
whereas we make 24h per turn at size 6
Gaspar:
meh k
NobleHelium:
main thing is that we only have 2f surplus at size 6
Gaspar:
clearly we need a copper pop at the mine
only makes sense, since we're playing pbem29 - the pitboss
NobleHelium:
no what we need is an aluminum pop so that we can build a modern armor and flatten gavagai's face
Gaspar:
lol
NobleHelium:
hmmm
Gaspar:
you've found a way to build a modern armor?
NobleHelium:
no, but i think we can get a faster build if we skip working the wheat for 2t
basically obama mines the other grass hill
and reagan goes to chop the riverside forest instead of roading the horse
we work the BARE RIVERSIDE PLAINS for one turn and then the grass forest for the next turn (other guy swaps to the completed grass mine)
Gaspar:
thats pretty awful
NobleHelium:
yeah we're not doing that
reagan will still need to go chop instead of roading the horse
Gaspar:
:/
we need more workers
(most obvious and useless comment ever)
NobleHelium:
alternatively
we send grant back west
and he does the chop instead
Gaspar:
well
whats our timeline on moving on burgundian?
NobleHelium:
well
i'm inclined to say we should send both of plame's axes and its spear over towards iran
Gaspar:
dangerous
NobleHelium:
we have 2 skirmishers
and border pop next eot
there's no chance we'd lose plame
at most he could pop in with a chariot and pillage the pig
Gaspar:
yeah fair enough
NobleHelium:
ok so if we start moving now
we'd get into iran t71
if we roaded NE of iran
we'd be 2SW of burg t72
and get to attack t74
oracle completes t72 with the two chops
Gaspar:
well
if we dont road the horse
its not like we're probably building a chariot in the near term
NobleHelium:
that's true
i mean i'd love to build a chariot to kill that warrior but i don't see how we'd actually build one
Gaspar:
variety of reasons to want a chariot
but we want a lot of things
NobleHelium:
the main thing that annoys me about not roading the horse
is that it's going to be a pita to get back to that tile
but i guess sending iran back west wastes a turn too
and probably one more moving it back east
so i guess it's the same or worse
all right
double check the spreadsheet for me
Gaspar:
k back
NobleHelium:
and then triple check it after you've gone back into the game :P
i logged out
but i changed everything to formulas and none of the numbers changed
so that's a good sign
only question is whether we want obama to move onto the pfh immediately and delay his chop by putting a turn into a mine
or put a turn into a cottage somewhere else and then move to the pfh
Gaspar:
well
NobleHelium:
somewhere else being the tile 2E of the cap
Gaspar:
my inclination would be to have him mine that after he chops it
just since i know we'll want it eventually
though we definitely need cottages more than mines right now
NobleHelium:
log back in, is healthcare 8t to border pop?
Gaspar:
yes
NobleHelium:
k, well
if we have him finish the mine it means he'll be one turn late to farm the rice
Gaspar:
its always something
wow
NobleHelium:
don't tell me you misclicked again
Gaspar:
i cant believe you didn't add more signs
NobleHelium:
make sure to deselect your unit
Gaspar:
i did
unrelated question
how do we feel if gavagai plants where his warrior is?
NobleHelium:
well then we road up to it and take it
remember we get third ring in 2t
i guess you're saying he'd be prepping archers
his builds don't seem to be archers though
Gaspar:
im saying hes going to stuff units in it
NobleHelium:
i don't think he would do that
Gaspar:
i dont think they're archers though
NobleHelium:
well we'd see the city the entire time
either he sits a whole fuckton of units there and let us see them at all times
or he loses the city
Gaspar:
yeah, if he shoves 5 units in there or something
i think id just move around him and raze something
anyway just asking
NobleHelium:
i don't think he's going to do that
given his beryllium plant
Gaspar:
i think it would be surprising
NobleHelium:
he should be smart enough to realize that we're going to get third ring imminently
btw
something else i was thinking
it might be feasible to go for early aesthetics
for soz of course
it's not that expensive
although everything is pretty expensive on this map
Gaspar:
no, since we've built two monuments already and have ivory
NobleHelium:
back to talking about the workers
so let's think about
how we would farm the rice and road the horse
we'd have one worker 2N of healthcare and the other on the pfh
what would you do
Gaspar:
borders pop on 76?
NobleHelium:
eot75
Gaspar:
i should say we can farm rice on 76, sorry
sec
feel like shit
that headache was a harbinger
anyway
NobleHelium:
wtf is the etymology of harbinger anyway
Gaspar:
theres no way to do either without wasting turns
well
you can get from the phf to the rice w/o wasting any, assuming you care about roading to the rice which im not sure you should
NobleHelium:
it apparently means 'host' and then 'camp, lodgings' in old german/french
what do you mean by get to the phf to the rice without wasting any
what specifically
would you do
Gaspar:
i think instinctively
73/74 i road the mine
its not a mine
its a hill
NobleHelium:
yes it is a hill
Gaspar:
anyway
75 i go 1S and put a turn into a cottage or a road
76 i farm
the problem there
is we have no workers and need stuff now
and we just spent 3 worker turns on stuff that doesnt help us at all in the short term
probably makes more sense
to start the mine next turn as you suggest
is mine 3t or 4t?
NobleHelium:
4t
Gaspar:
still calibrated for quick
anyway
finish the mine then be a turn late to the rice
than to waste all that time on roads we dont need
NobleHelium:
what about the other guy
Gaspar:
i dont see a way to get there without eating a turn
only way really
is to move SW onto the forest and chop something for hc
what that something is - i dont know
NobleHelium:
when do we finish the granary if we work oasis/horse
Gaspar:
well
i assume we stick oasis til growth
NobleHelium:
yes
those 2c are important yo
Gaspar:
heh, yeah
so we grow eot72
with 14/60
so we finish granary eot76
eot77
NobleHelium:
ok
so basically that chop doesn't speed up the granary at all
Gaspar:
correct
chop goes into a chariot maybe, to scout west
except that it cant
because we havent roaded the fucking horse yet
i hate this game
NobleHelium:
btw
what is the cost of construction compared to math
i know we need masonry too
but ignoring that
Gaspar:
539b for construction
385b for math
NobleHelium:
how much is mc
Gaspar:
693
theres no way anythings going to be better for us in terms of beakers than mc
mc is fucking overpriced
NobleHelium:
well i was thinking we'd oracle math and then tech construction
but it'd be the same cost as mc or so given that we need masonry too
Gaspar:
are we fairly well convinced
that our next city is gold?
NobleHelium:
i want our next city to be the barb city
Gaspar:
next settler
NobleHelium:
i'm kinda convinced we need to get that city and keep it
Gaspar:
you know what i mean
NobleHelium:
to turn around this game
Gaspar:
we cant turn around this game that way
NobleHelium:
well we need gold if we're going the barb city route as well yes
Gaspar:
but ive already decided to keep it
NobleHelium:
no, i'm saying it would be a significant step
Gaspar:
i just hadnt mentioned it
bottom line
we cannot waste the free hammers
raze and replace is for people who dont struggle to build anything they dont get a bonus on
i think if we do that
we should plant a 3rd city in that area south of those peaks
NobleHelium:
well
Gaspar:
maybe on the gfh E of sheep
NobleHelium:
yes that is possible
hill is good
two issues with that spot are
hills leading up to it
Gaspar:
those peaks would be fucking outstanding for getting a view on beryllium
NobleHelium:
and the fork spot between it and burg
it may still be the best way to go
Gaspar:
of course
it will be hard to get those peaks
im assuming he'll have culture on them soon
NobleHelium:
is the second peak second ring to bery
Gaspar:
both peaks are
NobleHelium:
oh
Gaspar:
we'll have to plant something in that area though
NobleHelium:
yes
anyway
Gaspar:
set the front, so to speak
NobleHelium:
let's worry about that after we actually take the barb city
Gaspar:
yeah
only mentuioned it because i killed the 2 city signs there since we decided to keep burg
NobleHelium:
ok so another thing we can do
Gaspar:
anyway
i mentioned this
NobleHelium:
is to send obama to the grass forest
Gaspar:
because i think 2 things
NobleHelium:
and reagan to the hill one
Gaspar:
1. we need another worker soon to be prepping that area
NobleHelium:
well we're getting a worker out of iran
Gaspar:
and 2. we should settle gold very shortly after taking burg
i.e. cap should do a settler after oracle i think
NobleHelium:
well
Gaspar:
well
i dont want to whip cap
NobleHelium:
we also want a forge and stuff
Gaspar:
if we cant help it
forge is ok
NobleHelium:
we want tow hip the forge
Gaspar:
yes
whipping forge almost always the right play
NobleHelium:
we can whip plame after the worker there
Gaspar:
but i think
NobleHelium:
anyway
Gaspar:
we should run the engy after the forge
NobleHelium:
we might not have gold that soon
but
Gaspar:
so basically that'll be the last whip there for a while
NobleHelium:
we can have a road between burg and iran at least
yes i still want to do the engy plan if we get oracle
SO WE CAN RUSH THE PYRAMIDS THEN REVOLT INTO POLICE MOTHERFUCKIN STATE
Gaspar:
lmao
honestly
rush mids
tech hbr
police state
could get a lot of HAs with ps and forges
basically pbem21
tough though
really need theo in that case
and we cant afford theo pretty much ever
NobleHelium:
lol
all right let's not get carried away
Gaspar:
like the game will be over before we tech theo
NobleHelium:
we can have walcott shipped over to russia instead
Gaspar:
770 beakers lol
lol
NobleHelium:
how is the quality of the russian league compared to say mls anyway
Gaspar:
does any gp bulb feud?
russian league is better than mls
NobleHelium:
yes we can bulb feud with an engineer if we tech iw
i mentioned this as a joke a while ago
Gaspar:
well
engy has to rush mids
so thats out
anyway
russian league is better than mls because there are a few rich teams that can buy really good brazillians
like hulk plays for zenit i think
and hed easily be the best player in mls
NobleHelium:
ok
so if we swap the workers
does that change anything
Gaspar:
russian league is on the level of the portuguese league basically
i was busy dreaming
what was the worker proposal
NobleHelium:
well we can send obama to the grass forest
Gaspar:
(i know its stupid but i need something to stay entertained here)
NobleHelium:
and reagan to the hill one
Gaspar:
what does that change?
NobleHelium:
well it means we could get 1/4 of a cottage pre-chop instead of 1/4 of a mine
and that may be preferable
Gaspar:
yeah
i think id rather we had that cottage than that mine
BUT
the problem is hill worker still has awkward wasteful transition to rice
at least if he goes first
i can sort of justify being late a turn to rice if we get a usable mine
though with running the engy
were never using a 0/4/0 tile
like ever
whereas eventually
we definitely will work that cottage
NobleHelium:
well
basically the bottom line is this
if we're willing to delay the horse road some more we'd have a better micro setup
Gaspar:
willing?
maybe
how long can we realistically not have a hard counter to axes
when the guy above us is pretty obviously building lots of axes
NobleHelium:
chariots are only hard counters to axes in some situations
Gaspar:
i dont think we can rely on him suiciding into our skirms
though that would be lovely
NobleHelium:
i'm saying that chariots aren't necessarily counters if he has a spear or two
Gaspar:
yeah
NobleHelium:
so you may not be able to attack his stack regardless
and if he's attacking skirms do just fine
Gaspar:
if hes attacking skirms are outstanding
hes not stupid enough to attack fortified skirms in cities with axes
NobleHelium:
so how does having one or two chariots change that situation
if he has a spear
Gaspar:
if he sends a scouting axe in
you can kill it
basically
i know
NobleHelium:
well i'm pretty sure he'd scout with the warrior
Gaspar:
im not saying horse is the key to our game
NobleHelium:
so that would be what the chariot is good for
Gaspar:
im saying
NobleHelium:
which is not a bad reason
Gaspar:
id like a chariot on zone defense
and one scouting
basically 2 chariots and im golden
NobleHelium:
ok
let's say we send obama to the grass and reagan to the hill
how would you micro things in that case
Gaspar:
basically the same thing i think
NobleHelium:
which is what?
Gaspar:
well
id probably finish the cottage
NobleHelium:
ok
Gaspar:
then still waste the turn getting to the horse on the forest
NobleHelium:
ok
Gaspar:
and chop it for whatever
just to justify the turn
NobleHelium:
you do realize you are delaying the horse road a lot doing this
Gaspar:
yes
i hate everything
NobleHelium:
ok so that is actually a 6t delay from fastest horse road
Gaspar:
mostly gavagai and serdoa, though
NobleHelium:
with that benchmark in mind
Gaspar:
ok, ive played this game a lot
NobleHelium:
can we come up with an alternative plan
Gaspar:
what would you do?
NobleHelium:
with the same or similar horse road delayness
give me a min
that was rhetorical
Gaspar:
i really just want to fucking finish the horse road now
but obviously
we're cutting it super fine with oracle already
and while i think even 9t probably beats gavagai's best time
though he does have a ton of fucking workers to chop
NobleHelium:
i'd probably give him more credit than that
Gaspar:
yes, but he still needs the techs
NobleHelium:
well priesthood might only be 2t
remember it's cheaper than meditation
Gaspar:
yeah
hes not 1t'ing a 150h oracle
pre-math
he needs 7 forests and 10 natural hammers for that
its just not possible
NobleHelium:
it is possible if you overflow enough
i don't think he'll do it
but don't say it's not possible
Gaspar:
well anyway
my point was once we're going to do this
we have to do it as fast as we can
NobleHelium:
yes, anyway
i'm still coming up with the worker plan hold on
Gaspar:
ok
man
the exwife just sent me a message on facebook
and its totally sending me into a downward spiral
NobleHelium:
i don't know what to say about that sorry
Gaspar:
nothing for you to say
more a warning if i start getting pissy with you that it has nothing to do with you
NobleHelium:
i see
Gaspar:
as opposed to normal
when it absolutely has to do with you
NobleHelium:
well i have an alternative micro plan that cottages the plains rather than the grassland, but gets us the farm several turns quicker and the horse road just as fast or one turn faster if we want to stack workers
Gaspar:
well, are we ever working that plains cottage?
NobleHelium:
i guess several turns quicker is two turns quicker on the farm
i think we would, yes
healthcare and the cap can both work it
Gaspar:
i thought about cottaging that tile several times
NobleHelium:
it's obviously not as good as a grass cottage but we don't have that much happy right now
Gaspar:
during this exercise
NobleHelium:
so it's not terrible
Gaspar:
not generally
alright
NobleHelium:
alternatively
we could road the grassland and cottage it after the horse road
basically
i took the dry cottage turn
and the extra road turn
and turned it into a road on the riverside grass
that allows us to cottage that tile instead of the plains in the same timeframe
Gaspar:
yeah, looks like it works to me
NobleHelium:
ok
is there actually anything else to decide
we've decided the three worker movements
2 axes and spear move to the ivory
whiskey works resources, village and mine producing oracle
oh one thing
i think iran can work a null tile and grow in 2t
Gaspar:
thats correct
NobleHelium:
what if we do one turn of grass and one turn of forest
Gaspar:
no, has to be null both turns
we need 12f to grow
with the forest we're only +5
NobleHelium:
ok, so if we grow faster
we grow eot69
worker gets completed 71
k
i say we do that
Gaspar:
ok
NobleHelium:
that's when the war party arrives in the city
i think we want to send one worker up with them and just road right to burg
Gaspar:
alright
i made all the moves
i think thats it
NobleHelium:
it'll probably be the existing worker
we can get the hill roaded t72 when the big stack is there
and then up to the city t74 when we hopefully take the city
new worker can get that corn farmed
all moves done?
Gaspar:
yes
NobleHelium:
k
Gaspar:
we need a scandal that involves taking land from the indians
for burgundian
NobleHelium:
heh
well we could name it Little Bighorn
it may not be a scandal in the normal mindset
Gaspar:
I thought about Seward's Folly
NobleHelium:
but it was definitely a big fuckup
seward bought alaska from the russians technically
so i'm not sure that counts
Gaspar:
yes, but its a land acquisition
I mean
nothing involving the indians really was a scandal
NobleHelium:
well that's because nobody gave a shit
Gaspar:
since it just involved us fucking them at every opportunity and nobody cared
NobleHelium:
Redskins Team Name
OBV
Gaspar:
lol
alright
ending turn
think i might just tidy this chat up and post it for the report
since there's no way I'm recreating our whole thought process
NobleHelium:
sure sure

[Gaspar]

t69 - Don’t you open your mouth about the best or I’m gonna shut it for you real quick

There's nothing I love in life more than a good heel promo.

Turn was pretty quiet since we discussed everything at length last turn. Barb war suicided into our spear:




Gavagai continued building units as though units might be going out of style. And who knows, they might be.



Another barb war showed up to provide some free XP in the west:



Here's the demographics. We're 3rd in soldier points and look at that power graph. Apparently nobody else is quite taking proximity to the insane levels Gavagai is. Damn you, Serdoa for Gavagai and for all the lakes and for his capital and for our capital.[∞] (You can look up for the scores)

[suttree]

There's nothing I love in life more than a good heel promo.

Achilles, blah, pun, blerg.