[SPOILERS] Roland and Suboptimal Team Up

[suboptimal]

Sounds good. I'll post the pick in a minute.

[roland of gilead]

did a test run this morning. By turn 130 I got all the wonders.

i was spitting out 141 faith, 141 culture & 86 science.

that is with 1 campus and a poor one.

2 each for theater squares and holy sites.

that's all coming from religion really.

i am spiting out great people.

getting 10 scientist points per turn from 1 campus with a library.

pretty sure i could get them all by turn 100 in a team and with better organisation.

[roland of gilead]

my population is huge.

my amenities are through the roof. I did have a continent split though.

i think i will get Temple of Zeus it was in a free update i think.

i have control of 5 of 7 city states all with over 3 envoys.

[suboptimal]

I've got a few questions/comments about your test run:

- how many cities did you settle and what were their populations?
- what was your land military in that game around T100?
- how much did you sink into builders?
- how much were you generating?
- I am a bit skeptical that we'd need (or should) get all of the early wonders unless we're trying for a cultural victory. In that case you'd need more Theater Squares to get great works flowing.
- We need to figure out if we're going to found two religions or one. If two, what beliefs are we targeting for each civ. If one, who's founding it?
- One thing about a team game is that and resources are the only real way to transfer stuff between civs. We'd likely both want to get Commercial Hubs + markets and/or Harbors + lighthouses up for trade routes. Based on what I see of the game economy early trade routes should be kept domestic to get cities going faster. Later on the game almost requires a transition to a economy, if only for maintenance costs.

I'd be curious to see how your empire developed if you had some more districts and you left off some of the early wonders that are questionable or they were put in specific cities for specific purposes. For example, the Great Bath and Hanging Gardens are good for housing but don't really need to be built otherwise. Likewise, while Temple of Artemis is a reasonable early wonder it's a bit of a waste unless there' a bunch of pasture/camp resources around. How does it go if, say, you tried to do the following:

- Either a Holy Site + Theater Square or a Campus + Commercial Hub as the first district pair in each city, along with level 1 buildings. Substitute Harbors for CH when coastal. All cities have at least two districts. One city substitutes a Government Plaza for either the CH or TS.
- Build "only" Oracle, Pyramids, Stonehenge, Colosseum, Colossus, Great Library, Jebel Barkal, Mahabodi Temple, Mausoleum at Halicarnassus, Petra, Terracotta Army for the first two ages of wonders.
- Have 800 milpower in mostly medieval land units by T100.

Something else to keep in mind is that an Entertainment Complex or two can frequently be built at a discount.

[roland of gilead]

It's hard to replicate as the ai is chasing wonders in a way I don't think others will be.

I bought most builders with faith.

My military was awful up to statue of Zeus.

Had good gold will get you numbers.

I just wanted to see what the output was once all were built. Played the game in 2 hrs with little thought and for example had the same 4 policy cards all the way from political philosophy. Builder one and wonder one.

My cap was a monster with great bath and hanging gardens. Size 13 with pingala it was spewing science culture and great people. Able to hard build Machu Picchu in 9 turns. I takes 4 builder charges to build a wonder more or less. I was getting 9 per builder in the end for 1 turns faith.

I think if I am spitting out 150 culture and it could be much more with the card or more zones I get to armies early for sure. 141 is double what anyone is getting in pbem 18 at a similar time.

I actually had poor land and only 2 good cities. Wasted a lot of time on inefficient stuff like having no shrine to spread religion.

I do agree with you almost certainly won't build all.

So much depends on terrain as well and I couldn't possibly play the same way in mp as this test.

I didn't have a trade route at all till really late. Lost early one and was trying to get only wonders to get it over with asap. Took the wonder pantheon as I wanted to test if it helped. Does on chops not builder charges. Was useful but not sure i would take in game. Same with card but government does help charges.

Will send the saves to look at and some screen shots later.

Would need those cities off the coast to make sure the wonders don't get raised.

[roland of gilead]

here are some screen shots. I can't emphasise how badly I played this just to see the end result.  will play a proper one and see the results. didn't even get the free builders from the ancestral hall which is criminal. Built 2 holy sites and 2 encampments when 1 of each would have done. The last wonder I built here is colossus which is criminal.  What I propose is to build properly, that would be 1 holy site the right amounts of army. faster expansion more trade routes. then build all the wonders if possible certainly as many as possible but prioritising the good ones. Getting a couple of industrial zones maybe with petra and getting more campus for sure. 

even the great bath here is giving me this plus 2 culture and whatever the 3 pop are working. Never got a flood but could yet though not much use here and that's about the worst payback. 

[roland of gilead]

i didn't build many cities until later and that was a mistake. Production into builders wasn't huge. Others would have spent more. i stole a settler and settled 4 or 5 late but initially only had 3. 3rd one was rubbish.

i intend to play this properly but with settlers army gold trade routs and campus all priorities but pick up a shed load of free monumantality wonders to accelerate me into the industrial era with huge culture and faith numbers and at least comparable science and army.

i also think the only way we are getting defender of the faith with russia in the game is stonhenge. lets hope for stone nearby.

you need to get a good faith economy in place. hopefully with an early pantheon. maybe earth goddess but we will see.

another thing i did is all but my first worker i kept a charge until the pyramids took them back to two. i intend for my empire to rarely be working unimproved tiles and to do a lot of chopping. i can afford the charges.

[suboptimal]

I looked at the screenshots and I think there's one or two things for you to look at:

- Over half of your is coming from one city.
- You've got income from deals with opponents. I don't know how early or how frequently you used them but they won't be available in this game.
- As a team how we would use the wonder building to move us forward to victory? Do we attempt to use the Indonesian navy to try to get enough early dominance with Jongs to set them back while China powers ahead for a wonder-based cultural win?

My current thinking with Indonesia is as follows:

- The key techs to find are Astrology and Shipbuilding.
- The key civics are Theology, Mercenaries and Political Philosophy

My initial plan is to settle the coast and get an early generating pantheon, based upon what the map will give me. From there it's tech to Holy Sites to start getting the generation flowing and get a religion founded with Choral Music and something else (Pilgrimage, Church Property or Sacred Places [see below]). The backup for Choral Music is Work Ethic. From there it'll be Harbors, galleys and quadriremes until Mercenaries comes in. If Mercenaries falls early enough in the civics tree compared to Square Rigging we might be able to gain a sufficient time advantage where a fleet of 4-5 Jong is enough to start crippling a neighbor.

I intend on fully building out Holy Sites, even to the point of getting Synagogues or Wats with an apostle, all to boost generation. Indonesia needs three things: . The first two, if Choral Music is available, can be developed in tandem. Harbors and Commercial Hubs for

I don't think that China should found a religion. What might work best is for China to indeed go full wonder hog but spread them out among different cities. Why? If I take Sacred Places (+2, +2, +2, +2 for each city with a wonder following this religion) and convert China then I can reduce my investment in commerce, culture and science a bit. You could build 1-2 Holy Sites, I'd convert them to my religion and then China's faith output could be used to convert the other cities.

We also need to work on game plans for same and different land mass starts. If we're isolated on separate islands you're going to have to play a more naval game in order to secure our territory and trade routes.

[roland of gilead]

i think we get to ask for same land mass.

agree on science and gold. i only had 1 campus and a poor one same with harbours and comercial hubs that wasn't what the trial was for. trouble with the trial is to get stonehenge from the AI i have to build it early which really stunts my game. i wouldn't do that in our game and shouldn't need to. I will do some better trials this week and share the results.

why wouldn't i get a religion and take sacred path thats what i did here and had 6 citys wth wonders.i can get the first religion for the cost of 50 hammers. i would get that back in benefits from a religion in 4 or 5 turns. saves you spending faith on missionaries. i also get 2 apostles anyway from the wonder.

stone dependent of course and the cost is a bit more than that in fairness.

stonehenge could be providing 8 faith 4 culture 2 gold 2 science per turn by turn 60.

i can turn that faith into a hell of a lot of units by mid game. I didn't have to build a builder/settler/trader in a city from the classical era on which would leave lots of room to produce districts.

i really need to take the wonder government which has 2 military slots. my intention is to use those to produce lots of ships and army.

your plan for faith is great. russia will get work ethic unless i take it and it's no use to me i suspect.

my pantheon will be interesting i took the 15% to wonder production one but that doesnt affect charges. you do spend a bit of time building wonders so as not to waste charges but not sure it is worth it. will need to judge at the time.

[roland of gilead]

i think thrawn wanted china BTW.

we will see if he takes Vicky but i seriously doubt it.