PBEM9 - Ruff Spoiler Thread

[Ruff_Hi]

got some notes re the map from Sylon ...

Dear Ruff,

Just a quick update on my explorations, since we agreed to coordinate maps when we met. I have found out two important things: First of all, the world is toroidal. My exploration of some islands to my North-east with a workboat eventually led to the minimap looping around. It would appear that said island chain connects the North and South hemispheres with a coastal link, meaning it is traversible by galley.

The second important thing is that this island chain, from the looks of it, appears to be directly South off the coast of your lands, and directly North of Mackoti's. I can't say for sure, mind you, but we'll know for sure if a Graecian workboat finds its way to the harbours of India in a couple of turns.

Sincerely,
Sylon

Dear Ruff,

Apologies for my previous statement. Having now taken a better look at the map, I'm not quite sure if it reaches all the way West to your territory. It might, but I have yet to defog that portion of the map. Nevertheless, I hope you gained something from the information on the islands.

Sincerely,
Sylon

Sylon,

Thanks for the map information. I think I can see islands off the South coast of my lands so I wouldn't be surprised that it does chain all the way to South. Further, I expect that the map with wrap East - West so you will need to send a boat that direction to get the circumnav bonus - I've been burnt more than once with this duel wrap requirement.

Congrats on your 3rd city. I'm dragging the chain re cities again.

Do you have any interest in a NAP?

Ruff

Sylon and I are miles and miles apart (overland). I don't think that either of us planning war but a NAP will help build our relationship.

[Ruff_Hi]

[SIZE="5"]Future Plans[/SIZE]
Here is what I would like to do:

1. 3rd city asap to pick up copper
   
2. build some MP units
   
3. capture Stonehenge
   
4. capture Great Lighthouse
   
5. put out a galley / fishing boat to explore land SE of my land
   

Quick update - also have some diplo update too.

A - not yet, will be 4th city in 2 or 3 turns
B - working on it while growing
C - yep - done
D - back burner
E - working on it while growing

Need more workers!

Edit: Oh - I have graphs on everyone - will post update.

[Ruff_Hi]

Dear Ruff,

A nap sounds good. It's been a tiring day, and I got caught in the rain earlier. I think I'll go to bed soon.

Would a NAP until Turn 100, with a cooldown of 5 turns prior to cancellation be alright with you? If not, please make a counter offer.

Sincerely,
Sylon

Sylon,

bah - a 5 turn cool down at quick may as well be zero turns ... and zero turns is crazy .

How about a staggered approach ...

NAP expires at Turn X

X-20: Automatic offer to extend NAP 10 turns (both sides must agree to actually extend NAP)
X-15: All units must leave each other's lands
X-10: Borders closed
X-5: Trade deals canceled
X: NAP expires

The NAP comes with automatic open borders as well as automatic map trade (once paper is researched) with map trade renewals each 5 turns.

Further, the NAP assumes that you will not assist other's aggressive acts towards the other party such as specific map knowledge (pointing out choke points), gifting units, each other's unit composition and location and other acts that the other party might object too (this is a bit general in nature but hopefully you understand what I mean).

Let me know if this goes too far for you.

Cheers,

Ruff

Dear Ruff,

Technically, we're on Normal speed, not Quick. Which is why this game is puttering along slower than the rest of the games.

The terms of the NAP are fine with me. Map trade renewals every five turns on Normal seems a little overkill, not to mention troublesome, however, so maybe ten turns would be better?

While we're at it, I would like to negotiate a separate treaty: The Treaty of City Neutrality. Basically, a treaty to avoid city giving shenanigans.

The Treaty of City Neutrality states that both parties agree not to accept cities from a third party whom the other party is at war with. Neither are they to accept cities with the intention of depriving it from the other party the Neutrality Treaty is signed with. Or basically, no accepting city giving cheese if it hurts the other party or deprives them of their rightful conquests. This includes colonies and far-off holdings- For example, Whosit's gift of his Centralia colonies in PB2 which unintentionally deprived Spulla of them (Spulla, if memory serves, were planning a surprise attack with their Fast Workers).

It's a little general, but hopefully you know what I mean. Neither of us- or, for that matter, any of us in this game want to be slapped in the face with city-giving-cheese.

Sincerely,
Sylon

P.S. I have yet to receive the save- did you perhaps send it to the wrong address?
P.P.S The Treaty of City Neutrality is separate from the NAP and applies throughout the whole game, being non-cancellable. Even should the NAP expire, the ToCN still applies. Is that alright with you?

Sylon,

Normal speed - oh ... in that case, we can probably afford to modify the cooling off ...


NAP expires at Turn X

X-15: Automatic offer to extend NAP 10 turns (both sides must agree to actually extend NAP)
X-10: All units must leave each other's lands
X-5: Borders closed
X: Trade deals canceled
X: NAP expires

How does that sound?

Re the ToCN ... that sounds ok but if someone offers me such a city, I will take it and (if I judge that you had the forces near by to take it) gift it to you on the next round. That way, you will get the benefit of a city not in revolt as well as it keeping all of its buildings. I will not actively seek to encourage a potential future war target to gift me such a city. How does that sound?

Ruff

Dear Ruff,

The revised NAP sounds good. Let's add another clause: Both parties agree not to spend espionage points on each other beyond the required 43 (42?) we already have.

Regarding the ToCN, I feel that while your intent is good, it might be counterproductive. Apart from the possibility of a ruckus being caused by the city-giving third party, there is also the fact that cities that may not be at risk of attack at the point of gifting might have been captured some turns after had the cities not been gifted. Or, to use an easier-to-understand example, the gifting of two of Greece's border cities to the Ottomans in PB2. While those cities were not directly under threat at the point of gifting (if I remember correctly), the fact remains that had they not been gifted to the Ottomans, India would have managed to seize them a few turns later.

Personally, I feel that keeping the ToCN simple will improve its effectiveness- the simpler and more direct, the less loopholes one might be tempted to exploit in the heat of the game. After this, I hope to offer the same proposal to the other players- the less cheese gifting, the more satisfying the experience.

One more thing: The barbarians seem to be getting uppity- I just came across the borders of a barbarian city in the North with my other warrior. Keep your eyes peeled- you might be able to snag a free city.

Sincerely,
Sylon

Ok, straight forward ToCN is acceptable to me.

[Ruff_Hi]

Sylon,

I just ran into a Barb city in Wonderland!

Ruff

If it's the one on the hill by the Southern coast, then we'll be greeting each other in person in a few turns.

Also, Kodii's city of First is directly to its East. Looks like the area is going to get crowded quite soon.

Sincerely,
Sylon

Dear Ruff,

Your borders have just come into view this turn. Don't worry, I have no intentions of snatching that worker- tell me which direction my warrior should scramble away to and I'll send him that way next turn.

I've just got Writing at the end of this turn, so if you would like, we could sign an open border deal. That said, I can understand if you're reluctant to sign it just yet, since that would mean I would get trade routes with your cities, while you won't get them with mine just yet. However, if it is of any assurance, I already have Open Borders with Mackoti and am trading with him, so you don't have to worry about my benefiting one-sidedly from the trade routes.

Since we already have an agreement to trade maps come Paper, may I assume that there will be no no-scouting-clauses?

On a separate note, explorations are going well. I have yet to defog any of the islands near your territory, though with any luck, there will be coastal horizontal wrap to allow me to get to your coast. I'm not very optimistic on that count, however.

As previously suspected, the islands link you to Kodii and Mackoti. The Worldwrap Archipelago* stretches all the way horizontal from your lands to Kodii's, and from Mackoti's Northern coast to the Southern coast of Wonderland. The islands themselves can generally only fit one city each- two if you squeeze them on opposite sides of the island.

At the center of this archipelago, however, is a larger island, easily capable of fitting three cities without squeezing. This island, which I shall refer to as Centralia Minor from here on, is fairly rich (Not Wonderland rich, but nevertheless a step above our respective core lands), containing cows, crabs, bananas (The only source of them I have found), silks, deer, and wines, and a river. As its name suggests, Centralia Minor is the nucleus of the archipelago, and happens to be at around the same distance between your lands, Mackoti's lands**, and Kodii's lands, with one island between it and their core. The strength and central position of Centralia Minor means that whoever controls it will end up controlling most of the Archipelago.

Of course, this has nothing to do with me, since our gracious mapmaker has decided to cut me off from the Archipelago entirely. And all I get is one piddly two-tile island to make up for it.

Frustrated (at the draw of the map) but sincere nevertheless,
Sylon

*If you've got a better name for it, please share it.
**It's just a little bit closer to Mackoti's lands, actually. More notably, the island between his core Centralia Minor is three tiles away from Centralia Minor, yet has coastal instead of ocean tiles. Definitely WB'ed.

Sylon,

That warrior isn't woodie II so it couldn't reach my worker in 1 turn - I did check. OB is fine - I already have Writing so I will send you that offer next turn.

Thanks for the information re the islands - Wonderland is a fair distance from my lands so I don't see myself getting any land up that way.

Ruff

Hey Sylon,

Where did you get all of your island information from? You say that you haven't defogged the islands and then give a pretty good description of them.

Ruff

To be exact, I haven't defogged the islands off your coast. My path went NE (Through Mackoti's lands) -> N (Southern coast of Wonderland) -> E (Kodii's lands in the hopes of finding Pegasus' borders and horizontal worldwrap). Thus, I have a large portion of the archipelago defogged, but not the islands on your end.

Sincerely,
Sylon

[Ruff_Hi]

I think that Sylon and I are developing a pretty good relationship. I am particularly happy about that auto map trade clause - I am behind the 8-ball re map knowledge and 'stealing' it from Sylon sounds like a win for me .

My settler out of my capital went South to pick up my horses - my 3 cities are very closely packed at the moment. My 4th (Copper) will be the first that is BFC distance from the others. I've also started a galley in my 2nd city to explore my () islands. My woodie II warrior is off in the NE exploring - I will be looking at when I need to turn him around to get him back in time to hop on the galley.

CIPMAC has 4 cities, everyone else has 3.

In other news - I have finally decided on my naming convention for this game - see if you can work it out from future screenshots.

[Ruff_Hi]

5th to 1 city
5th to 2 cities
5th to 3 cities
3rd to 4 cities!

Things are starting to look up. The struggle now is that expenses jumped from 3 to 9 with my 4th city. Teching mathematics and then Monarchy.

[Ruff_Hi]

Sylon has 5 cities as does Kodii (captured barb city). The big news is that Sylon put down a city in Wonderland (will fill in with picks later today).

Dear Ruff,

I have settled in Wonderland. Wish me luck- I'm going to need it.

Sylon

Sylon,

I saw that you put down your 4th city - well done. Where have you settled? Can you describe the city location? My Woodie II warrior is heading back home and will give you any intel that he sees on the way through.

Ruff

It's my fifth city, actually. Thessaloniki is on the western edge of Wonderland, 3E from the jungle-mountain near where we first met.

Sylon

Just ran past it today - you are a braver man that I am for settling in that location.

Ruff

[Ruff_Hi]

Sylon's new city (blue X) and the captured barb city (yellow X)



Woodii running away from the action and heading home with the aim of picking up a ride ...





That setter build is out of date - both that city and capital have whip overflow into workers.

[Ruff_Hi]

reply from Sylon

It's not half as bad as it looks- I can link it to my capital by building a road 1SW of the city, thanks to the river and the archipelago.

Sylon

I wasn't thinking about trade, I was thinking about defense. I would have put that city on a hill at least.

[Ilios]

An update with pictures?

Cheers mate!

Do you have Iron Working already? What's your reasoning for planting the Giants city?