[Spoilers] Victoria of Korea - Mardoc and SevenSpirits

[Mardoc]

I do agree that the railroad will probably be more complicated in the details, but it probably circumnavigates the world with a main line; perhaps it has some branches north or south.

As for which direction to go... the obvious one is east, since the scout is already pointed that way (along with everyone else's). So west seems a more likely contrarian option. However... we can luckily put off this decision for another turn. And after that, hopefully one or two opponent scouts will show up before we are forced to decide. Another option, of course, is to stand still for a couple turns (perhaps going south and then returning) and meet everyone else who whizzes by. That actually sounds potentially strong to me.

A generic PBEM question - do we get to see which direction they came from when they entered our field of view? That could tell us a neighbor immediately.

That's an advantage of being last I hadn't considered, that we can see what others do and react to it. In terms of meeting everyone else - the magic number is 3/4 with Agriculture, in the next 4 turns. If everyone picks a random E/W direction and sticks with it, we ought to meet 4/6 civs in that time standing still; odds of 3 having agriculture is (3C4 * 1C2)/(4C6) + (4C4 *0C2)/4C6) or 8/15 + 1/15, which reduces to 3/5. If we haven't met 3 of the 4, then we'd be guaranteed to meet them on turn 5, so we'd only lose out on the bonus commerce for one turn.

Compared to us moving, this is strictly better. IF the assumptions hold. The real question, therefore, is whether it's safe to assume everyone will pick a direction and stick to it, or whether someone will do the same as we do. I think that's a safe assumption, though; knowledge is power. So I'm inclined to go away and come back every turn until we've met most or all of the other civs, then start exploring ourselves.

[SevenSpirits]

A generic PBEM question - do we get to see which direction they came from when they entered our field of view? That could tell us a neighbor immediately.

We can tell which direction the unit last moved by which way it's facing - that's probably enough.

Also, our opponents may be willing to tell us some information.

[SevenSpirits]

Looking at your last screenshot btw, I suggest you turn on Detailed City Info (to show turns remaining on the worker).

While we're at it, I'd also recommend these settings, but that's mostly personal preference, and many of these options don't really matter either way:

Show health bars (also under Graphics options)
Wait at end of turn (under Game...)
Minimize Popups
Show enemy moves
Quick moves
Quick combat [both]
Stack attack (well I have it on, and it shouldn't hurt, but it also shouldn't matter)
No unit cycling

[novice]

I think staying in place with the scout is a bit too clever, there are too many assumptions behind that choice.

I was trying last night to think of ways to balance a map with 7 civs with identical starts. I could only really think of two options:

1) All the civs arranged in a single strip. (Basically SevenSpirits' theory of a short wide map.)
2) All the civs arranged in a ring.

I think we can discount 2) as being too big of a map editing job. Maybe Ruff used the Hall of Mirrors script?

Also BW->Agriculture->BW seems an undisputable tech path. Second build depends on what our scouting reveals.

Does a 2-move unit move 20 tiles on railroad? I thought all units moved 10 tiles, regardless of their movement rate?

[novice]

It also means that Amelia, Adlain, and GES got unlucky with their Organized/Ikhanda picks.

I'm not so sure. Being organized and/or having a cheap courthouse might be great for this setup. They can land grab and settle all the chokepoints. Normally this isn't viable even if you can afford the maintenance, because every city has to fend for itself with regards to workers and military. In this case, the railroads ameliorate that problem.

BTW, the thing that confuses me about the map is that Ruff said the map would be toroidal "for maximum player interaction". In a hall of mirrors script, toroidal world wrap doesn't really add any player interaction.

[novice]

Alert

Excellent!

Suggestions for city two:
Preemptive
Overcall
Interference

Interference might be suitably obscure, if the aim is to keep your opponents guessing.

[SevenSpirits]

I think staying in place with the scout is a bit too clever, there are too many assumptions behind that choice.

I was trying last night to think of ways to balance a map with 7 civs with identical starts. I could only really think of two options:

1) All the civs arranged in a single strip. (Basically SevenSpirits' theory of a short wide map.)
2) All the civs arranged in a ring.

Quite simply, the instructions to everyone to move their scout se-se disqualifies most possible map layouts (including a ring). But I guess we will see.

I think we can discount 2) as being too big of a map editing job. Maybe Ruff used the Hall of Mirrors script?

He can't have used it straight-up as it doesn't do toroidal. Also, I think he had his idea before I posted that script. So it seems somewhat unlikely. In either case, it has definitely been hand-edited, or used a non-standard map script. Incense does not naturally occur in plains, only desert. In fact that whole plains belt below the jungle looks out of place, and was perhaps hand-edited from a desert.

Does a 2-move unit move 20 tiles on railroad? I thought all units moved 10 tiles, regardless of their movement rate?

Oh yeah. Shows how much I play the industrial era.

If that means that the players are two scout turns apart, it has the following implications:
1) It will be harder to meet three people with Agriculture. We could possibly get it done in 5 turns, but it would be hard. Most likely, putting the first turn into Agriculture will not hurt us.
2) The scouting will be more ambiguous than I thought. You don't know which way other people have gone until after you commit to a direction.
If we want, we can send the warrior down to overlook the rail line and contact anyone who passes by. (He'll get there in time to see anyone except our left neighbor.) But then we have no scouting for a second city site nearby. So I'm not sure what's best. It's also unclear whether we can send our warrior onto the rails too, or whether we need to keep him close to help against chokes.

BTW, the thing that confuses me about the map is that Ruff said the map would be toroidal "for maximum player interaction". In a hall of mirrors script, toroidal world wrap doesn't really add any player interaction.

It might mean that there is no settling away from the railroad, only closer to it.

[SevenSpirits]

The teams and their starting power (from techs):

Gold Ergo Sum:
Huayna Capac (Fin/Ind) of Zulu (Agri/Hunt)
2k

Luddite:
Isabella (Exp/Spi) of Aztec (Hunt/Myst)
2k

Amelia:
Julius (Imp/Org)of Sumeria (Agri/Wheel)
4k

Adlain:
Hammurabi (Agg/Org) of England (Fish/Mine)
2k

plako:
Suleiman (Phi/Imp) of Egypt (Agri/Wheel)
4k

Tatan:
Shaka (Exp/Agg) of France (Agri/Wheel)
4k

Us:
Victoria (Fin/Imp) of Korea (Myst/Mine
2k


It seems pretty clear that everyone got one warrior (2k power) and one scout (0). (Just checking.) That's why the mean opponent has 5k power - the half with the wheel have 6k, the others (with hunting or mining) 4k.

I expect Luddite, Adlain, and us to research Agriculture first, and the others to research Mining first. With luck, in four turns, knowing any three opponents will grant us +1 beaker to Agriculture.

[Mardoc]

I think staying in place with the scout is a bit too clever, there are too many assumptions behind that choice.

Does a 2-move unit move 20 tiles on railroad? I thought all units moved 10 tiles, regardless of their movement rate?

Well, the civilopedia says simply that railroad costs 1/10 MP to enter from another railroad. But I tested it, and you're right, even a 2 move unit can only move 10 squares.

That makes waiting in place less attractive; it means we get less info next turn (like, for instance, confirmation that someone's 20 tiles away), and that we'd have to wait in place for 12 turns, not 6. The biggest downside to moving is that if someone picks the same direction as we do, we won't meet them scout-scout for quite a while.

But, in terms of getting enough contacts early enough, I now think moving is our only option; best case scenario is that the first three civs we meet, in 6 turns, all have agriculture, odds of 4/6*3/5*2/4 = 1/5. (although you're probably right that everyone without Ag will go for it first) Then the 4th civ in 8 turns (turn 10); we should already have Agriculture by that point. But if all we need is 3 civs, our chances are probably better exploring.

Moving gives us a head-on velocity of 20 tiles/turn combined, which ought to be a civ a turn, unless they're going west like we are. Plus it gives us actual map knowledge to fill in or replace our speculation After all, we're basing the 20x140 on essentially no more knowledge that that there is a railroad, and the way we think we'd do it if we were him. No guarantee Ruff thinks the same way we do.

If we want, we can send the warrior down to overlook the rail line and contact anyone who passes by. (He'll get there in time to see anyone except our left neighbor.) But then we have no scouting for a second city site nearby. So I'm not sure what's best. It's also unclear whether we can send our warrior onto the rails too, or whether we need to keep him close to help against chokes.

Well, on the one hand, I expect the rails to be somewhat magnetic, pulling explorers and settlers toward them. On the other; honestly, I don't want to overweight them ourselves. I'm sure we'll meet everyone fairly soon, even just with the scout, but what's going to matter most in the long run is getting a powerful civ, which for us non-Org folks, is a relatively standard circular empire. So I think I'd like to stick with scouting around our start.

Plus, now that I think of it, except for that wheat spot, so far what we've seen to our south is much less attractive than to the north. Which could be another interesting choice they decided to give us - stronger city, or block the chokepoints.

Unless Ruff decided to put all/most of the resources and awesome city sites along the railroad. Which seems quite possible. Similarly, toroidal for max interaction may just be a matter of keeping distance from the railroad down, or it could have been his first thought before they came up with the railroad idea. Or even *gasp* misdirection

[Brian Shanahan]

Some interesting thoughts on the map. I'm not going to say anything about it though, as I am spoilered from seeing it all.

I'd say SIP was the right choice though, on any map when playing compeditively taking two turns to get going is too much.