It's a Barb World Outside, Let's Keep It That Way: Jonas Endain of the Clan of Embers

[Ichabod]

Just out of curiosity why do you say nerfed? Good civs can't use it, but that's only a problem for good civs. Otherwise it's strictly better than BTS surely, thanks to Agrarianism and Sanitation providing a stack of food, as well as the minor benefit of capturing the occasional slave in battle. Only negative is that it's further back in the tech tree, is that what you meant?

In comparison to BtS:

• Granaries are weaker ( only 40% of food box ),
  
• Granaries come later ( two techs in AH and Calendar for much more breakers than BtS Pottery )
  
• Granaries are split into two buildings.
  
• All buildings cost much more hammers to build while whip gives the same amount as in BtS
  
• Slavery is much deeper into the tree
  

Overall increase in food availability doesn't offset the need for more hammers ( unless you run sacrifice the weak ). What's more whipping is an awkward fit to most of the working economic models ( aristocracy cuts food, SE doesn't allow whipping, cottages take space required for farms ). So yes, I'd also say it's nerfed and highly situational.

Thanks, Mist, couldn't have answered it better.

You could add that there's another way to turn food into hammers to build units (conquest civic) which further decreases the value of slavery.

Not that it's useless, of course. Just not as good as BTS' counterpart.

[Irgy]

[*]Granaries are weaker ( only 40% of food box ),
[*]Granaries come later ( two techs in AH and Calendar for much more breakers than BtS Pottery )
[*]Granaries are split into two buildings.

I conceed that I missed granaries. That the techs for granaries come later isn't such a big deal, but paying twice as much for only 80% of the benefit is a big change.

[*]All buildings cost much more hammers to build while whip gives the same amount as in BtS

I don't get this. The buildings cost more to build with straight production as well, why is this a nerf to whipping? If anything it's good for whipping, because you generally want to whip as much population as possible to get good value for the happiness penalty, and now there's more options for doing that.

What's more whipping is an awkward fit to most of the working economic models ( aristocracy cuts food...

This I really don't agree with. What aristocracy does is combine with sanitation and agrarianism to make grassland farms awesome, and by doing so they encourage you to work more food. Grass farms spend the middle part of the game at a base of 4f2c. Compare that to a mine, which is 1f3h or 4h for most of the game. Even if you only convert 1-for-1 food for hammers (which is about what you get without a granary at all) you're still better off working the farms than the mines by 2 commerce per tile. I do conceed conquest is an alternative for converting the food to hammers. However an alternative is not a nerf, and if you can afford to invest in the granary+smokehouse the whip is still better value.

Anyway, sorry for derailing your thread a little Ichabod. I'll leave it at that, at least I understand your point now.

[Ichabod]

The discussion is always welcome, Irgy, feel free to keep posting about it.

The problem with buildings costing too much hammers is that you need very big cities to whip them and they'll lose a lot of pop. And for every pop point you lost, more food you lose with the "worst granaries".

In BTS, I use the whip most of the time, to make cities come online quick -> size 2, whip monument; whip a granary when possible; whip a library -> there you go, that's a productive city. And you can do it with every city very early in the game (the civic and all the buildings I mentioned are avaiable with early techs).

You can use the whip for other things, like preparing for a war. I constantly use the strategy of curassier or cavalry war and you can make even shitty cities productive with the whip.

In FfH, things aren't that easy. The useful buildings are all spread across the tech tree. You can see that I'm having trouble finding things to build. So, the whip isn't so effective early in the game. Add this to the fact that even the civic comes kind of late in the game. So, it early setup of cities can't be done by using slavery.

Also, war preparation is different in FfH, specially due to the building requirements. It's better to specialize cities to build certain units and, normally, these cities are the ones you don't want to whip (since they have nice production/good commerce).

So, small cities can't heko much in war. You need to whip a expensive building just to be able to whip a single unit type.

That being said, you are right about the amount of food avaiable (farm improving techs + irrigation tech come early) and maybe I just haven't used slavery enough to make a good judgement.

But if there's a good leader to use slavery, it's an evil, spiritual one like Jonas Endain. Only problem is that I'm not planning to get the tech that enables slavery any time soon.


That reminds me that I have to make a post about the new religion choices I made.

[Ichabod]

Turns 28-32:

Nothing too big going on, just improving my land and exploring.

Since calendar was discovered, my workers started plantationing the resources. The work was finished on turn 30:

Demographics for the GNP increase:

It went even higher later due to teching a tech with a prerequisite.



Turn 31, Ancient Chants discovered, mysiticism started, due in 9 (maybe I can finish it in 8 with a little deficit research and micro).

Second city (I'm going to rename cities and units in the next turns, second city and capital city aren't good names :neenernee) finished a worker, for a total of 3, and started a smokehouse (again because of the lack of a better option). I'll keep building more workers here and there, because when rantine is built, I'll go to 5 cities in no time. I'm even going to road to the barb cities before I get them.


Demographics from the last turn:

I'm second in GNP (number 1 is either someone with God King + elder councils and scientist or soemone who got a free GP, I think), first in production and fourth in food (even though I have 32 and the leader 33, so that's not a big difference ). There's someone with 9 GNP... I'm guessing and hoping that its Dantski (guessing because of what I'll post later, hoping because he's likely to be my first war target, like I'l show in my war plans that I'll post later), but, anyway, that's very bad...


Exploration:

Three untis are exploring. Unfortunately, I haven't found more huts or graveyards

The goblin heading SE in that narrow gap is probably going to meet someone in the next few turns.

The narrow gap going north is the entrance to Dantski lands, I'm guessing. I'll explore near the Acheron city first, since the probability of founding huts is higher there.



Here's a small quiz for you lurkers. I'm going to go for Runes of Kilmorph for the economic benefits. But, what do you think is the religion I'm going to adopt for military reasons and for what reasons? I'll talk about it in a post when I have the time, probably in the weekend, but if you want to take a guess, go ahead.

[Brian Shanahan]

Order? Gives prod bonuses, plus decent happy. It is good for early wars, and you can switch to Empy later on for Chalid, (though an Orthus Nether Blade Sphener is very unbeatable and you don't need mana nodes).

[Ichabod]

Just a necessary OMG update from turn 31:

That big drop in selrahc's score can only mean something.

He lost a city!!!

Hell yeah! That's awesome news. I wanted to report that the barbs started to get out of their cities in groups of 4 warriors. I've seen a bunch of them in the last turns.

Guess someone was caught unprepared. And the score loss was so big that it makes me think that it was his capital.

Am I missing something here?

[Ichabod]

Big update coming this evening, including the negotiations between ther land of fire and the land of ice to conquer the whole world.

[Brian Shanahan]

Sounds interesting.

[Ichabod]

Turns 33-41:

First thing, I'm sorry for the lack of updates in the last couple of days, but I had a lot of problems, from getting sick to unexpected work. Anyway, on to the game.

So, where do we stand. Let's take a look at the demographics, cities and civics:

DEMOGRAPHICS:

We are actually doing pretty well in all the important categories. GNP is very hogh because I'm runnin 100% gold boosted by God King civic (+50% gold in capital city). It'd be significantly lower if I was doing 100% science, since I'd lose the civic bonus and the -10% science from the barb trait would get factored in.

Number 1 in GNP is Dantski. He did a big jump last turn. It's either of the 2 options: an academy (+50% science, +4 culture) or he is also running 100% gold (he's currently with the GK civic too). It's the latter, since no GP has been born in the last turns according to the log. I'm still ahead of him in the things that matter (since he probably has +4 culture from monuments in his cities - bare in mind that he's already at 3 cities), but it's something to take in account for my next plan of action.

Ravus Sol led the GNP graph for a long time, specially due to his creative culture. But that's very bad... I was hoping he'd be lagging in GNP, since I think he's the main threat in this game, but that was not true.


CITIES:

Capital is already running a specialist (pagan temple took 2 turns to complete, even though it costs 67 hammers: spiritual + GK = 150% multiplyers). When the Elder Council is ready, I'll wmploy the scientist too. ETA on the GP is 10 turns (not factoring stasis which, as you'll see, will be fired in some turns). I'm hoping for a GPro to bulb WotE and found RoK.

It'll go Elder Council -> Pagan temple. The barb trait it's a big downside here, since the Elder council will give 1,80 science, which gets rounded down to 1. I'll run a scientist too when I can.


CIVICS:

God King for the multiplyers in the capital. Pacifism to get the GP as fast as possible.


OVERVIEW OF THE MAP:

The map consist in 5 peninsulas connected in a big continent with the Acheron city in its center. The arrows point which player is in each peninsula. I'm hoping to find out where Sciz and Selrahc are in the next turns.


ABOUT RELIGIONS:

I already stated my plan of going RoK. It's a cheap religion and it'll give me a nice economic boost with its cheap temples (due to spiritual) giving gold. And, like I've already pointed out, SoKs are crazy good with warrens and I don't need to actually be in RoK to build them.

So, what's the religion that I'm going to use as my main one?

Octopus Overlords is the answer. The OO priests will be totally overpowered in these circumstances. Demographics show that all cities founded until now are coastal. Also, I'm actually pretty close to an opponent (dantski), but to reach him by land would take a lot of turns. Using water walking units, I could reach him in no time.

The main factor, of course, is Tsunami. Having a damage cap of 75% is no joke, but it can only hit units next to water tiles. Well, not so much of a problem in this map, since there's no way to reach my land without standing in a tile next to water. And, like I said, all cities are coastal until now. So, there's no way to avoid the spell.

I'll try to get priesthood as fast as I can, while being in RoK and then take a detour to get OO. 20 OO priests will probably be sufficient to take dantski (using warrens, I just need to build ten), since they'll have mobility and potency due to spiritual.

So, that's my long term plan right now. Get Priesthood + OO and attack Dantski. But what about my short term plans? Let's take a look.


DIPLOMACY:

So, I've met Ravus Sol:

These are the messages that I exchanged with Ravus after we met. I'll post them now and I'll give my comments later, since I'm running out of time. I assure you that they are pretty interesting.

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Hey Ravus,

Just met you ingame.

I don't have much time to write right now, so I'll keep it short.

Congrats on the leading GNP!

Ichabod

P.S.: Is it just me or Selrahc lost his capital last turn?[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Cyan"]Well met brave orcs, bearers of the burning embers


I spotted you nestled under the evil gargoyles. This is my next attempt to get out and explore the land. between barbarian hordes, azers, gargoyles and dragons the scouts of the Sunny ice kingdom have not been having too much luck with that.


Nice that you are keeping track of the gnp! i was Happy too before I remembered that my cultural leader skewers it A bit in my favour. I've also just switched over to Largly a production focused economy so i think the title of Leading gnp is now your own so voila!


I spotted selrahc loosing 60 or so points as Well. I wondered if it wasn't the barbarians initially and if it was in fact you yourself, or the grigori rushing him to Extinguish a threat... i also didn't know it was the capital of his.


So far the raging Barbarian hordes have been manageable with Excessive amounts of defence but there are currently 8 warriors marching towards the capital right now so i can understand how it could happen. Not that it would be a problem for you being Friendly with them. I spotted what you meant in the tech thread about this not being the Raging barbarian world we Imagined, the azer and Elephant cities for example curtail your Natural expansion with your hero. You have my commiserations on that. Of course between heroic strength and metals you should still have a good time of it but it's still annoying. What's next a city with a yeti?


Maybe I should pop of stasis in response to selrahc loosing his capital... I'm not sure if that would help or hinder him, i'm also not sure which i'd prefer. I do like to try to be sporting. But the chance to cut of his ability to produce Defenders while under Siege is tempting if just to eliminate a future rival. Although as ice dwellers we care little about the armageddon counter rises.


Enough about that though, i wish you luck on your travels, not that you will need it, i have yet to spy any animals apart from the city-elephants.


- Ravus the grey of the council of three[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Same to you, people of the great white and the vast grey.

Although we stand in different sides of the elements, I believe we can share a bond of trust, while each one tries to survive in his own ways.

It's nice to have someone to talk to, since the other ones we met are silent and untrustworthy.

I don't know if Selrahc lost his capital. What makes me believe that that's what happened is combining his great fall in score with the Cities Tag in the demographic screen. Last turn, my capital and my second city were in the list of the 5 greatest cities. Since so early in the game I could only expect to see capitals figuring in the list, it led me to the conclusion that it was indeed his capital which got lost.

Regarding exploration, be careful. There are 2 gargoyles walking just a few tiles north of you. Well, the whole area is infested with barbarians, so it won't be a easy task for you. Good luck with it, anyway. Unfortunately, I can't get all my fellow orcs to act with reason (maybe that can change in a couple of turns). (out of character parenthesis:The lack of animals is probably due to the great amount of pre-placed barb units in the game, so the barb unit limit is reached... all the barbs we see roaming now where created in the cities, so they don't use the limit... but I'm guessing, I'm really not sure).

Maybe your production switch is due to the building of a certain ritual... A big white hand... Some barbaric orc tribes near your cities told my scouts about it, but I'm not sure if it's indeed the truth.

On the Selrahc issue, I'll reveal to you that my plan is to use my world spell just after you use yours. That's to avoid the unberable maintenance costs that go along with it... If I get lucky with the conversions, we could turn this into a 4 man game... That is.... tempting, to say the least...

I know that warriors are almost invencible in defense during this phase of the game, but maybe I could get a nice stack of combat warriors and that could be enough...

But you ought to have realized that we have a great number of goblin forts with 4-5 goblin archers... Each of them are strenght 4/6, which means, they are nearly invencible during this part of the game... I won't lie to you about the fact that it's tempting to go on a pillaging spree in my enemies lands and I cannot promise that you would be spared. That is, unless we do some kind of deal about it.

Please, don't think that I'm threatening you just for the sake of it... I'm just telling you the truth...

That being said, I'll probably fire my world spell shortly, when I reach mysticism or just a little later (since I'll be able to tech with specialists while running 100% gold), even if you don't use stasis.

I'll wait anxiously for your thoughts about the matter. Please, don't think that we aren't capable of doing fair deals and that we can't be reasonable. We could even help you use your mighty white priests, if the target you choose is the right one.

Lok'tar Ogar,

Irk'hra Bod Endain, Jonas' brother[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Cyan"]From the hollowed halls of the Sunny Ice God-Kingdom. This message brings greeting to the Temptor Ichabod from Varn the White, Ravus the Grey and Auric the Black.


-


If the Ice nation can accept the Sunny Varn Gosan into it's ranks I am sure we can find an accord with our Opposing Elemental Nation, the Firey Orcs. You do raise some good ideas, but first, let us deal with the other things mentioned.


You mention other ones you have met, i'm afraid the only one we have spied ourselves is Dantski of the Atheist Elves. He wasn't so much silent as more willing to leave things left unsaid. Do you have any other contacts that you know of? I would ask for directions but after taking one look at the barbarian hordes outside the Azer city the Sunny Ice nation has given up on scouting via-walking and will wait for boats to be invented. With my starting position being on a peninsula and the only connection to the main through the Azer city and the barbarians i doubt i will meet anyone new for quite a few turns now.


I do have the potential to build the White hand, i won't bother denying it. Perhaps if a certain weak-now-but-potentially-dangerous-in-the-future rival was near me i might try keeping it secret and rushing but the only beings under threat from my white hands right now will be the numerous barbarian cities that surround my borders. They have annoyed me and need dealing with.


You mention Mysticism and we are the only two spiritual leaders in the game. In fact with the Elves being led by an Atheist and the Grigori being an actual Atheist nation the only other spiritual rival is the Sheaim who basically HAVE to go for the Ashen veil to get the most out of their nation. The rest of the religions seem to be up to grabs between us. Personally i'm leaning towards grabbing Runes or perhaps the Overlords initially (due to the island-like start).


But onto your tempting idea of a joint worldspell...


I do find it tempting, the threat of a pillaging run on my own nation doesn't hold much stock though. I directly beelined Philosophy so i have no improvements to pillage and i'm number one in military units and experienced enough from the barbarian skirmishes that i could just hold up and wait for the White Hands to be created.


The idea of you pillaging everyone else and even knocking Selrahc out early on the other hand... Do you know where he is or are you counting on luck to get a barbarian near to him? After poping you should have the best map in the game. My original plan was that in around 20 turns i would have three rituals pop at the same time. The White Hand for offence, Stasis to stop rivals and barbarians production, and Samhain to create even more powerful barbarians to cause damage to the other players.


Of course if you waited that long then Selrahc might have recovered and some rivals might have axemen for defence... So lets make a deal shall we?


In 5-6 turns Samhain will pop and create extra barbarian hordes, I will pop off Stasis to stop all Rival production and research and you pop of your own For the Horde spell to go on a fun pillage city razing world tour. In all the confusion you should get some fun adventures.


In exchange i'd like to NOT have Orcs of the Burning Legion knocking on my borders. I'd also like to be kept up to date on your exploits. I get so little news on my cold island. Eventually i'd also like a map exchange so i can benifit from your fun exploration/killing romps while I myself am holed up. It would also let me plan out my own route for my White Hands once my little island is brought to Order.


The Ice Lords look forward to hearing the Fire Clan's thoughts on this potentially fair deal.


-


P.S in the spirit of friendship any information you have on the special improvement Lentum Frigate would be welcomed.


- Ravus, the Patiently waiting man in a grey cloak[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Ravus Sol,

Let me say that since the start of this game I thought you were going to be my number one rival, especially after your civilization and leader choices (I was planning to get Varn Gosam of the Illians, going spi/fin, just like you did). Right now, I'm glad to see that you didn't disappoint me. This game is starting to become really fun.

We also only found the elves led by Dantski. They are close to my starting point, but separated by water. Since I have more map knowledge than most of the players (at least, I think so), I know understand what the mapmaker did. Every player has his own peninsula, with an X number of preplaced barb cities. This peninsulas are connected to a main continent, which has the Acheron city on its center. That being said, we are really distant from each other, having to cross through Acheron's lands and a vast wilderness to go from one to the other. I'm now heading with my explorers to the peninsula west of yours, I expect to find either selrahc or Sciz there.

Dantski haven't said a word to me until now. He revolted to God King and apprenticeship last turn, which means he probably only have agri, AC, Myst and education, unless he got very lucky with huts. That means, he's nowhere near any strong unit... He has three cities, i'm guessing he used his starting warriors to rush one of the less defended barb cities near him. He said to me that it was a mistake (we had a brief chat during the blitz session, after I found him), since his tech rate decreased significantly due to maintenance... He probably popped one of the techs listed above from a hut... Just a gut feeling, though...

Well, choosing the elves with a agnostic leader is a very bad idea to say the least... He won't get any ancient forests...

On to the more serious matters...

I really like the idea of combining our world spells... 5-6 turns sounds like a nice enough preparation time. But I'd like to make some things clear before we commit on doing it.

First. If I'm going to declare on almost all my opponents, I'll end up as the scourge of the world. So, I'd like us to create a formal alliance. You'll have to admit corresponsability (is that even a word?) about my actions. I'm not asking you to declare war on everybody together with me, but you'll have to admit that we planned this together and that you'll help me defend myself if I need it, even using your priests.

Bear in mind that no one can attack me right now, so you probably won't have to get anything going to help me defending myself. But you'll have to say that you will do that if I ask. And, if the situation gets really bad, I'd like some help. But I really don't think that it can happen in the current circunstamces...

But, what are we going to gain by attacking all our opponents? They'll probably keep playing the game just to avenge what we did with them. So we need to plan this carefully and we need results.

I can probably take Selrahc from the game if I get a good amount of barbs near him. Since he only has one city, even if I can't capture it, I can pillage him. I don't think he'll ever get near pyre zombies. He's the lesser threat here.

Dantski, like I said, is near me, but he can't get in my lands, since we are separated by water. Being the elves, he'll rely on cottages for research (he already has education). That is, he is extremely vulnerable to pillaging. And he has THREE cities to defend. I bet he doesn't have enough troops for that. He's the target for my first serious war, so I don't mind attacking now and crippling him a lot. So, I don't need any help dealing with him, especially since we are very distant from you.

Sciz, on the other hand, is the one I'd like you to help me with. The peninsula to the west of yours might be the one where Sciz is or the one where selrahc is. If Sciz is there, it's perfect, because he'll be very close to you. Close to you = near enough for a PoW elimination. If that's the case, I'd like you to come as fast as you can to attack Sciz with your PoWs. I can help you avoiding the gargoyles and I can pillage him into oblivion, so he won't get to good units.

Why am I saying all this? Because, once your world spell is gone, I won't be able to keep the barb units due to maintenance. I'll probably keep some goblin archers threatening each player, but that's it. So, we have to act fast to turn this early advantage into eliminations.

Our biggest problem would be if Sciz is not in the peninsula to your west. That'd mean that he is in the other peninsula (I already found the entrance to this one too), which is further away from you. I'm currently exploring it, so I'll probably find out about it in 3-4 turns.

So, we have to keep discussing about this deal. My main concern is that everybody knows it's Ichabod + Ravus against the world, not just Ichabod against the world - Ravus. But I also want to get some definitive results from our deal. I don't mind providing you with info about what's going on. In fact, I want to do it, since I want us to work together (specially to kill Sciz). Trading maps is ok too, but maybe I'll ask for a little more than just your map to trade it. It won't be anything unreasonable, of course.


Onto other subjects:

Yes, I found the Letuum Frigus. No, I haven't explored it yet. And I can make sure that no one will explore it for the next 100 turns, even more. On the other hand, I can explore it any turn I want. So I'm in a very good position to negotiate over it.


I'm sure we'll keep on talking about this.


Lok'tar Ogar.

Irk'hra Bod Endain, Jonas' Brother[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Cyan"]This letter arrives for you in clutches of a shivering Goblin. The parchment is so cold that it burns in a way so similar, yet different, to the Clans heat and fire.


-


Number one Rival? Thank you Irk'hra Bod you do know how to flatter someone. Well you know what they say. Keep your friends close, your enemies closer, and bond your rivals to you in unbreakable bonds of alliance.


When Stasis hits i'll write something public in the tech thread revealing us having worked together to set this up. Reporting that we sent coresponence to each other admiting we both wanted to activate our worldspells soon and we naturally sorted out a joint alliance based along working together both via the spells and long term. Seeing as you need to activate your worldspell after mine people will allready know we are working together before you even have to pop it off. Seem fair?


I do agree with your subtle hints that after each other our biggest threat is Sciz and his Adventure popping civilization. Atheist Elves cannot get ancient forests and have somehow got it into their heads that the Barbarian Dragon is immune to capture. So no long term ace in the hole. Selrahc would be a threat but is currently having bad luck loosing his capital. If he manages to get pyre zombies his threat level goes up. But Sciz is a logical first choice to die and nothing cements an alliance like good old fashioned murder...


So the basic long term plan you desire is that i make myself as much a pariah as yourself. Declaring publicly that we are bound together, thus making others view us in the same light. We declare an alliance and help each other out with military resources if necessary. The sheaim are dealt with while they are weak during the stasis, then we try to find Sciz for my PoW rush while you turn your attention onto the Atheist Elves. At the very least we should damage them enough that we can advance ahead of them and mop up later.


I have to warn you that by finishing Samhain now i'm putting of my PoW's even longer. It is 20+ turns to complete the ritual and another 20+ or so to mop up the peninsula and fight my way out. This means I won't be PoW rushing for another 50 turns. So this won't be a combined war rush apart from my little barbarian increase and Stasis spell. It will be more of a one-two punch. You weakening who you can and us finishing of whoever you leave still standing.


I have been quite blunt. My apologises to you, but this time I thought i'd get all the pesky alliance details smoothed over straight away.


As for the rest. Easily done.


Dantski seems like he is mainly concentrating inwards on his empire not outwards on the world and everyone else. Natural builder and turtler perhaps? Or maybe just distracted by his shiny new city and it's necessary defence? Either way you should have an easier time with him like you say. It will be finding the other two that will be the most tricky part.


I would like a map exchange. To be honest I certainly don't feel comfortable sending out my PoW's without one. Normally I would wait for hawks, good Reconnaissance helps so much in avoiding Nasty Surprises. What would you be wanting as an added incentive impending-ally of mine? A Future Mana exchange? An agreement to let you borrow any metal's that stumble into my grasp to upgrade your barbarian city thief hero?


As for Lentum Frigus. Ownership is more important to me then just getting the Agressive trait, as that will dissapear once i change traits. I mainly convet it for it's Ice Mana. Without owning it I don't have a monopoly on the rare Ice spells and unless it's close enough to add to my empire and has a barbarian city nearby to steal... well.


-


Signed Ravus Sol, Sanhaim & Stasis in 4 turns and counting[/COLOR].

Just a quick note. After those last emails, I explored Letuum Frigus. I couldn't deceive Ravus into thinking that he could get the agressive trait, since he already knew about the bug. So there was no reason for me to keep from explrong it:

[Ichabod]

Well, Selrahc was eliminated. I told early in the thread about the risk of exploring lairs early in the game.

Of course, I can't be sure about how a wraith came into play, nor if it was selrahc who popped the lair which created it.

But, well, it finally happened, an early elimination...