WW29: Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood

[Goreripper]

Why were you following the no-talk-suggestion?

This.

So far the case for MJW as a mafia seems weak.

Of course it is weak. We are at Night 0. What do you expect a strong case with clawprints and DNA-samples?

The nice thing about a night start is that we get to observe real interactions. Seer gets a scan doctor gets some information and we can see who the mafia shoot. That is why we start at night this time. Otherwise we are just doing the usual jokes and meta game speculation that happens day one when there are no facts which does not usually catch mafia but instead causes a dumb town to make a fool of himself and get mislynched.

Zakalwe I can see your case for talking too but be honest you are probably also a little biased because you got killed before you could play last game.

[Rowain]

The nice thing about a night start is that we get to observe real interactions. Seer gets a scan doctor gets some information and we can see who the mafia shoot. That is why we start at night this time. Otherwise we are just doing the usual jokes and meta game speculation that happens day one when there are no facts which does not usually catch mafia but instead causes a dumb town to make a fool of himself and get mislynched.

I don't follow your logic at all. The fact that we talk or not doesn't alter the seer or doctor points at all. The seer will get a nightresult as long as he is a) not killed b) not roleblocked and c) doesn't hit the NK-target. Doesn't matter the least if we talk or not.
The doctor only gets information if he blocks the kill and again it doesn't matter if we talk or not.
The nightkill only tells us something if a) wolves are allowed to kill a villager (and not forced to kill the GM as was suggested in the discussionthread) and b) the target is someone who talked else we get absolutely nothing at all.

Otherwise we are just doing the usual jokes and meta game speculation that happens day one when there are no facts which does not usually catch mafia but instead causes a dumb town to make a fool of himself and get mislynched.

So why not use the night to get passed the joke-votes and meta-speculation so that maybe we have a bit more info on start of D1?

[Goreripper]

The nice thing about a night start is that we get to observe real interactions. Seer gets a scan doctor gets some information and we can see who the mafia shoot. That is why we start at night this time. Otherwise we are just doing the usual jokes and meta game speculation that happens day one when there are no facts which does not usually catch mafia but instead causes a dumb town to make a fool of himself and get mislynched.

I don't follow your logic at all. The fact that we talk or not doesn't alter the seer or doctor points at all. The seer will get a nightresult as long as he is a) not killed b) not roleblocked and c) doesn't hit the NK-target. Doesn't matter the least if we talk or not.
The doctor only gets information if he blocks the kill and again it doesn't matter if we talk or not.
The nightkill only tells us something if a) wolves are allowed to kill a villager (and not forced to kill the GM as was suggested in the discussionthread) and b) the target is someone who talked else we get absolutely nothing at all.

Seer always gets some information unless he targets the night kill target. Even if he is blocked that means he knows he was blocked and can make a guess at who was likely to block him. Like wise the doctor gets some information even if it is only that he was blocked or not. Also the nightkill tells us who the mafia fears but does not expect to be protected. Mathi is on our side if we just let the seer scan.

Otherwise we are just doing the usual jokes and meta game speculation that happens day one when there are no facts which does not usually catch mafia but instead causes a dumb town to make a fool of himself and get mislynched.

So why not use the night to get passed the joke-votes and meta-speculation so that maybe we have a bit more info on start of D1?

I would answer that maybe we do not need a joke voting and meta speculation time at all. I think it helps mafia more than us for the above mentioned reason but maybe I am wrong and it is a ritual the town has to go through for some reason every game.

[Rowain]

Even if he is blocked that means he knows he was blocked and can make a guess at who was likely to block him.

That is BS.

Like wise the doctor gets some information even if it is only that he was blocked or not.

Doc only knows he was blocked if he targeted the NK.

Also the nightkill tells us who the mafia fears but does not expect to be protected. Mathi is on our side if we just let the seer scan.

Scum fears a) Seer b) in alphabetic order: Lewwyn, novice, Serdoa, Zak. c) getting their NK blocked d) lot of orderly discussion in town

They love: Chaos, villager infights, Meta-speculation, silence and lurking villagers

For me wasting N0 by not talking is a gift for scum.

[novice]

I guess we're talking, then.

Are we meta-clearing MJW for a post where he refuses to exploit meta to clear himself?

I actually found his attempt to paint Zak in a bad light pretty scummy.

This did stand out. Novice you do realize the Ichabod case from two games ago keeps being made by this kind of thing right? Why is the dumb MJW attack on Zakalwe pretty scummy? It might seem amazing to you but other players in this game do sometimes see Zakalwe as a mafia possibility.

I am not saying I agree with his attack on Zakalwe. Or even can understand it without my head hurting. But I do not see it as pretty scummy.

You know, you could simply limit this post to a question on why I find MJW's attack on Zak scummy. Invoking the Ichabod rules gives the impression that you want to discredit me. And why would you want to do that?

I found MJW's attack on Zak scummy because it seems to me he was reaching for reasons to accuse Zak. He says that Zak is scummy because he doesn't show appropriate regret for suggesting a rule correction that disfavours town. It's an inane accusation - the rule was obviously bad, the resulting disfavour to town very slight, and was Zak really supposed to post "woe is villager me and all my compatriots, for having to accept this rule change"?

MJW's behaviour is reminiscent of the game where he pursued Zak for a whole day for a hypothetical suggestion of "no lynch". Zak and MJW were both scum in that game, but the point is that scum MJW loves to find himself a metacase drum to keep beating so that he doesn't have to make actual meaningful contributions.

[MJW (ya that one)]

I'll just point out to rowain that night talking is a bad idea. This is because the wolfs cannot PM during the day. So night talking gives them a chance to coordinate during the day for no good reason. Two days is more than enough time for meaningful discussion and three days is just overkill so we don't lose much.

Everything else can wait until the day.

[Goreripper]

Thanks for the answer novice. Your restatement of MJWs attack makes sense and yes it is bad.

You know, you could simply limit this post to a question on why I find MJW's attack on Zak scummy. Invoking the Ichabod rules gives the impression that you want to discredit me. And why would you want to do that?

Because I would like you to admit you have a bias for Zakalwe? I am not trying to discredit you in general we all have biases. Lewwyn allows himself to engage with Jowy and he is just gone. I try to read MJW and all I can hear is a humming sound. A bias for your brother is healthy and says good things about you both as family. But I just look twice any time you leap to defend him because it is there.

Looking at the last MJW post. See Rowain the crazy guy who is talking at night agrees talking at night is terrible.

[Serdoa]

I believe he stated that "no nighttalk" just because he thought that is what village would do while he himself talked regardless because he hoped to get everyone else to talk as well.

I don't think mafia would be particularly eager to get people talking on night 0. I think they'd be content to lurk through the night if the mood seemed to allow it.

I don't agree with that zak, but we obviously have a different opinion on that and without any experience (at least in my case) it really comes down to believes. But I think scum benefits more from talk than they lose by it. As scum you need to integrate in the town in any case, it doesn't matter if you have to do it for 24 hours more. But then I never felt it hard to integrate into town as scum either, so I admit I might be biased.

[Rowain]

So night talking gives them a chance to coordinate during the day for no good reason.

You lost me somewhere.

No matter if we talk during the night they won't be able to coordinate during the day. And no matter if we stay silent or not they can coordinate their day-plans during the night anyway.

While there have been instances of someone screaming "Kill me" during the night wolves usually don't need that kind of help. But silent village is always pro-wolf.
Not to mention that any reaction of the wolves can leave a trail to them.

[Jkaen]

That is crap rowain. By now I think it's fairly well accepted during a normal night phase talk helps only the scum. This night 0 being a special case