[Spoilers] Grotsnot massively inflates his own View count

[Grotsnot]

That is one of the main limiting factors, yeah. Getting up to pop 4 is a breeze but 7 is gonna take a while. I was thinking for the capital I can get it to 5 and then chop the Marsh and Sheep to get to 7. Since the Sheep tile is where I want the Campus. Gonna be more of a challenge for the others. There are an awful lot of Wheat pairs on this map so Feudalism should help a lot.

I hope you are right about Greece and Rome. But I think these mean that Rome has two other problems on his side of the sea, while Greece has met only me:





And they're scrambling for a GG! I think Declaration of Friendship lasts 30 turns? Could be less, but 30 puts an expiration at Turn 45. Which is too late to renew before settling City 3 I think the GG is due up... turn 58? Though that's assuming they only use the policy card.

Turn 31 is in the can, will post that up tonight or tomorrow before work. I'm a bit less doom and gloom after sleeping on it but Greece being so much closer than expected has the paranoia dialed up. And I'm sad that the Colosseum plan has to get thrown away. Been playing around with Kuro-before-StG plans and it could possibly work. It's hurting for early production too, so won't work out much better but I could get walls up (w/ an Encampment) somewhere in the mid-to-late 50s (right around an unaccelerated Greek GG). And, though I need to run the numbers on how much military I'd have, could get Anzio and StG both founded approximately Turn 60.

While I have you here : how much of a priority do you think settling on the defensive side of a river should be? It's been a primary influence in Kuro's location despite a somewhat-lousy 1st ring. I'm tempted to move Anzio NW onto the Marsh at that river fork but then I wouldn't be able to fit in Pravda on my side of the bay.

[Banzailizard]

Well where else would you put Kuro? A river gives a +5 bonus same as a GG.  Looking at the map in your last post settling on the south side of the river does not seem to get you much other than maybe moving the sugar from 3rd ring to 2nd (not nothing but housing is the bottleneck on growth, not food).  Or are you asking is it better to prioritize Kuro vs some other cities?

[Grotsnot]

Sorry for not being clear, I kind of ramble I was asking about two separate-but-related things:

1) Over by Anzio, is the defensive benefit of a river worth blocking the safe Pravda sites? It would have 4/6 sides covered by river and all of them facing Greece. But without Pravda it doesn't have a sister city to mix districts with, since Saunders is connected to Kuromorimine. I could set up a western colony - my updated hypothesis for the map's start locations is us players as points on a hexagon, so the west/northwest is likely hinterland - but that's stretching my already-strained ability to defend.

2) Could potentially relocate Kuro onto the Coffee. Hooks up the amenity a little faster (I forget if I'd need Irrigation researched but it at least saves a Builder charge) and gets +1 in the City Center (right? another thing I should sim-check) which would get those 2nd-ring Sugar tiles even faster. But it feels a lot more exposed.


I'm also kinda wondering whether forting up behind the rivers would successfully signal to Alhazard "dude please just leave me alone, I'll leave you alone"

[Banzailizard]

I do not think "leave me alone and I will just leave you alone" is an option right now. From what you describe:

1. Greece has gone out of their way to get the GG policy card.  That is not just to use the wild card slot, that slot also works on any type of policy.  Therefore they are willing to pay the opportunity cost of foregoing whatever policy they would run for getting an early GG. They are not doing that for the retirement effect either.

2. They have only discovered you diplomatically.  

3. City states are raze only 

All of this implies that they are going to attack someone and you are the only option right now.  We are well past the point of live and let live.

Let's start with Kuro.  If sugar is in the third ring you are basically not getting it in a reasonable time. That being said I am not sure if it is worth it.  True you will get an amenity but it is an amenity you have access to elsewhere. The food will lead to growth.  However what will that growth contribute towards? What tiles will Kuro work to repay the cost of founding it? Maybe scout a bit more to see what else would be put into that ring but right now I do not see a reason to perfer south of the river to North in terms of production/resources and only a slight defensive one to go north of the river.

As for Anzio the real issue to me for both spots are those hills 2 tiles away.  They boost Archer combat and make it dangerous for your units to be standing around near your city.  Any defence of Anzio would mean holding the hills which in turn mitigates the effect of the river as an issue in combat.  It also makes it harder for you to hold the south bank at all.  Better to try and get the hills in your boarders than try to leave them out, especially if it hurts another cities production.  

If you want further assurance about Anzio I would do a quick simulation.  Pick a time a number of turns out and compare cumulative production under both founding locations for both cities.

[Grotsnot]

The live & let live was mostly in jest, on the off-hope they stumble into someone to their south to go bother instead But yeah this is why I've done the sudden shift from worrying about Rome to worrying about Greece. And praying to any deity that will listen that Rome is too busy in the east to charge across the narrowish landbridge

As for Kuro, are you saying it's (potentially) not worth founding at all? Or Anzio first? I would think if it's sitting on a chokepoint I should grab it sooner rather than later and get some Walls up. I'd been imagining a series of forts in St Gloriana, Kuromorimine, and Anzio protecting a clutch of Campuses and Holy Sites (and eventually Theatre Squares and Commercial Hubs) in the core.

Good point about those Anzio hills. I'd been planning on plonking an Encampment down on one of them, but that still relocates the combat across the river. So probably better to leave room for a shielded Pravda after all.

[Banzailizard]

Greece is Southwest of where Anzio is going right? I think that is the more important settle to secure land, so long as you have the military to back up the claim.  Do encampments get a bonus from hills as well?

In general Kuro is lower priority I would say because right now the ROI is not high and it's not like you are using it to boost district bonuses if you abandoned the colluseum plan.

[Grotsnot]

So CATS is southwest of Anzio sites, Sparta (true name unknown) is southwest of Kuro. Though there is room for a 2nd city in between Kuro and Sparta.

I'm not sure if cities or encampments get hill bonuses, but I think they do. I somehow got it into my head that Encampments always count as being on hills as far as ranged attack visibility though. Need to confirm that and check if they get the defensive bonus. (I don't think hills give ranged attack strength bonuses, do they? I'm pretty sure it's just defensive and visibility)

I'll think about going Anzio 2nd. It's interesting but seems riskier and also fairly provocative. I'd have to station a fair chunk of military all the way over there since it would shoot straight to the top of Greece's target list. If I go Kuro first, it does have lower immediate ROI but has tighter internal logistics and shields my underbelly. The southern approach is the most wide and open, going through Anzio is rougher and has several river redoubts.

I don't want to give up on the Colosseum entirely. Kuro will still have enough forests to still make a run of it. I just doubt I'll have the breathing room to try.

[Grotsnot]

Sorry, been a busy couple days. Will hopefully get to T31+32 report tonight. Doom continues its march. What sucks is that I actually mostly like my starting clay but the neighborhood is the absolute worst possible draw I could have gotten. The lack of a backfield doesn't help the sense of impending doom, either...

Have a preview

[Grotsnot]

Right, so, stuff. Got Turn 31-33.

In an effort to make myself more delicious We are the first to finish a District on T32. Woo, beat the Lavras.






(GPP summary from T33)

Saunders starts work on Warrior. The capital finishes up its Builder before working on its own bbq sauce Holy Site. Next turn (34) the fresh Builder will chop-overflow it into a Settler.

Warrior in the west lost track of the just-as-nearly-dead barb but found the settler footprint of what I'm fairly sure is Greece's Scientific City-State. Hopefully they have a less dumb quest for me.




Northern Slinger went to check out Rome's northern approach on my capital and stumbled upon a barb camp. The hornets were roused and we've backtracked most of the way home and hoping to pick one of em off for the BW boost. Sadly the barb Spearman took the bait instead of their Slinger so may need to wait for Saunders' Warrior to finish.



Southern Slinger, since the discovery of Sparta (DOOOOM) has been poking around Greece's territory. We discover the city's true name is Someone Set Us Up The Bomb and that the Greeks have a pair of +2 Campuses under construction (2nd mountain by CATS' not pictured, Slinger moved west after picture was taken). Meanwhile Rome already has Iron connected so Legions will probably be on the scene in the early 40s.




I've been doing a little bit of score analysis but only a little. Greece should have 4 25 techs and a 40 - we can see Pottery, Writing, and Mining for certain. Probably Animal Husbandry for the 4th 25er and I'm guessing BW but with the Stone there's a chance it's Masonry. Also they purchased a Monument a few turns back. Pretty sure in the new city.

Rome has Mining, BW, and a 25 - guessing AH but maybe Pottery? Very likely working on Iron Working though I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Current scores:





I am coming to the conclusion that for this game to be any fun I pretty much have to ignore one of my neighbors and hope for the best. Preparing for what feels like an inevitable dogpile is miserable. The sea seems to be keeping them from meeting each other so in fairness it won't be a coordinated dogpile, they're just both gonna get their punching on at about the same time and I'm an obvious target. In Greece's case the only target. Who knows if they even have a southern neighbor.

Question is which. Greece I dunno maybe there's an outside chance they'll be willing to stay friends, but if not I'd rather Rome get my clay in a dogpile to punish the duplicitous rushy Greeks. Who knows. We'll keep muddling through but I don't expect this civ to see 2019. In the meantime I'll just keep throwing pins around like I have a chance



Maybe I should just stuff my fingers firmly in my ears and go for Colosseum in spite of the both of them. Build something pretty for them to knock down before I die...

[Grotsnot]

News has been generally poor lately, sorry for lack of updates. Not much of one, but here's something.

To get the couple bit of good news out of the way, northern Slinger managed to pop a barb Slinger and get the BW boost. It finished just now (Turn 38) and the Iron is basically exactly where I wanted it to be. It's on the grassland hill two tiles west of the St Gloriana site, so will give that city a much-needed production bonus. Met Seoul off to the west of Greece, they want me to boost Wheel (mine a resource). So gonna settle StG next, mine the Iron, and knock that out. Settler is due in 2 turns. There's a barb spear sitting on the sheep right now so hopefully he pisses off before then. Slinger is plinking away it but won't kill it by then. Warrior from Saunders is headed up to help.

However, a fresh barb camp spawned right south of Saunders and is making it difficult for my southern Slinger to return home. He's poking around the fringes of Amsterdam while waiting for the northern forces to come help out. The gold will be nice, at least, if I can kill the camp before the scout triggers. Considered sending the Warrior straight for it but with the Settler due soon I want to get the pressure off the capital first. Warrior out west has found the edge of the continent and is doubling back toward home to die in help with the inevitable invasion(s).

The first wave of Districts and GPPs have started to roll in and none of it is good news. I had forgotten how disgustingly good Lavras are - that they get +2 Great Prophet Points per turn in addition to the half cost and cultural people. 4x religion multiplier for Russia, yay. And they seem to have already built a Shrine or perhaps picked up Divine Spark, so they're projected to win that race. I'd like to build some prayers but I don't think I can spare the cogs what with being sandwiched between Isengard and Mordor. Sarugorgo is still running Strategos while Saurajan has an Encampment up. They also might have their 3rd city but with the morning turn I didn't have the time to run the numbers to be sure.

With BW finished I've started on Masonry. I'm doubting I can get walls up in time where I want them but we'll see. Saunders has started on a builder and I'm planning on getting a Trader out of Ooarai next. Sending it down to Amsterdam will, with the envoy bonus, land us 9gpt. I was hoping to use it to bootstrap StG but the Iron and that much ought to make up for it a bit.

Will try to get some screenshots up tonight. Trying to not be too down on this game already but the constant war drums (real or imagined) really saps enthusiasm. Greece STILL hasn't met anyone but me. Unless the UI is somehow lying. If they're at the head/tail of a stupid fucking snake landmass I'm boned.