Werewolf 7 game thread

[zakalwe]

Gaspar: Gaspar is another player that I can't read very well. I remember a lot of people saying that he's easy to read and see when he's a wolf or not, but I can't see exactly how. So I'd like to hear people's opinion on Gaspar (I've seen opinions going on both ways, so I'd like to see the arguments behind them). And I'd like Gaspar to give more detailed opinions. He seems to be very insightful and very perceptive, so his reads on others could really give a good read on him.

Here's my take on Gaspar: I don't think he has changed his style very dramatically from the first two games, yet I haven't found him suspicious at all, so far. Given how biased I ought to be at this point to think of him as a wolf, I'm trusting my intuition on him. I cannot point to very specific things that make him a villager this time around, but I couldn't really point to very specific things that made him a wolf in the last game either. Much of my case against him back then was based on "tone reading", i.e. a gut feeling. It seems unlikely that he managed to subtly change his behavior in such a manner that he goes from reading as very wolfish to reading as completely innocent. So whatever it is my subconscious is picking up on, I'm inclined to trust it.

[Serdoa]

I think you make it very easy for yourself zak. But you don't answer my question, you state instead

if Scooter and I did not engage in discussion with each other, I'm sure you'd see that equally as much as a confirmation that we are both wolves

But I have never accused you for your discussion with scooter (what you imply with your post) but because

scooter was under suspicion by zak and then scooter states something untrue and zak... accepts it? He does not even ask for an explanation for this inconsistency in his post.

Care to answer that?

zakalwe

[Meiz]

Truth be told, I'm not nearly enough convinced of Sareln's guilt to put him in the same line with TT. We are getting dangerously close to a desperate situation if we lynch a villager today, especially as the wolves still have the double voter (yes, stating the obvious, that's just my style ). I feel scooter and TT have acted in the most suspicious way, so I'd love to put these two as the lynch candidates today. Can someone summarize the accusations against Sareln (other than his quiet play)? What are his wolf like actions besides quietness?

When Erebus was accused, I pointed out a line of his that didn't sound right at all for a wolf (basically: "I think uber is a villager but we have to lynch him"). How about this quote from Sareln:

Day 1 is often a crapshoot as far as good results for the village are concerned, so I figured I should just play some defense (since I think I'm alright at it, contrariwise, I suck at accusing people), keep up on the reading, and skate on to day 2 unless someone pushes for me or something incredible comes up (I doubt we'll be seeing Baner claim/anti-claim on day1 this time no?)

Honestly, would a wolf say this? I'm getting a feeling that the easiest villager-mislynch candidate is being set up for the day. I'm not saying he is a sure villager, but I do think there are two better targets for the day (anyone wants to make a guess?).

I think Sareln might have been on the right track with this: "So my hypothesis is that Lewwyn was night-killed because he was sending strong villager vibes and his death could help frame his argument partner (me, always under suspicion after day 1)"

I think his vote against Erebus was logical, since Erebus was already suspected and had accused Sareln for vote manipulation, http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showpost....tcount=473
I'd do the same in his shoes.

I find it odd that his lynch/mayor tallies are used to accuse him him, since he did the exact same thing in WW5 a lot, as a villager. And to repeat, this guy was lynched in WW5 despite the seer scry.

I've said it before, but I think both scooter and TT used really bad logic to attack people on the first day (scooter against Zak and me + TT against me and Sareln [suggesting we were wolves who had to kill Lewwyn to avoid his accusations. I was not even suspected by Lewwyn]).

I also think TT sounded too sure for the innocence of Erebus (out of nowhere IMO) and I suspect the reason for his vote changes was that too many wolves were already voting one target.

Don't get me wrong, Sareln is still on my suspects list. I just simply have to better targets in my mind, so vote scooter

"Summary" of my previous accusations against these two: http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...post177556
(you don't have to read it completely, just press ctrk + F and type Twinkletoes or scooter )
http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...post177913
http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...post177930
http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...post177944

[Meiz]

Lynch:

Sareln (4): scooter, Gaspar, Ichabod, Catwalk
Twinkletoes (3): zakalwe, Roland, Injera
zakalwe (1): Serdoa
scooter (1): Meiz

History:

1. zakalwe votes Twinkletoes
   
2. scooter votes Sareln
   
3. Gaspar votes Sareln
   
4. Ichabod votes Sareln
   
5. Roland votes Twinkletoes
   
6. Injera votes Twinkletoes
   
7. Catwalk votes Sareln
   
8. Serdoa votes zakalwe
   
9. Meiz votes scooter
   

[Catwalk]

Regarding your suspicions towards me Serdoa, you have biased yourself and are now reading everything I do as suspicious. For example, if Scooter and I did not engage in discussion with each other, I'm sure you'd see that equally as much as a confirmation that we are both wolves. It's a shame, because you usually have very interesting observations, but now everything you say seems to predicated on an assumption that I know is false. I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on who the wolves may be, if you start with the assumption that I am innocent.

Am I the only one who reads "wolf" between the lines here? That was essentially one big non-argument and then stroking Serdoa's ego in an effort to make him back off. I don't know if this is typical zakalwe play, but it stands out to me. Especially in conjunction with the earlier "I should probably tone my play down so others get more of a say", which didn't last for very long. He seems uber diplomatic for someone garnering only very mild suspicion.

I'd be interested in hearing what everyone thinks of zakalwe's play so far. For the record, I was buddying up to zakalwe earlier purely on tactical grounds. I do think he's a good player, whether he's wolf or villager. So if he's a villager, getting on his good side might help establish mutual trust (similar to Meiz last game). If he's a wolf, the trust I seemed to be putting in him might help blindside him a bit. He's not on my prime suspects list, but he's definitely in the grey zone. I actually did the same thing with Meiz, reasoning that it would pay off whether he was wolf or villager. I believe him to be villager at this point.

[Serdoa]

When Erebus was accused, I pointed out a line of his that didn't sound right at all for a wolf (basically: "I think uber is a villager but we have to lynch him").

Meiz, might I add that TT said the same thing?

[zakalwe]

Honestly, scooter was under suspicion by zak and then scooter states something untrue and zak... accepts it? He does not even ask for an explanation for this inconsistency in his post.

Scooter claimed he had already been suspicious of Uberfish on day 1, before voting for him, and I pointed out that it if he was, he never said so. I did catch his response right before I was going to bed but I didn't feel the need to stay up even later to keep harping on that point. His explanation that it was all in his head could be true, or a convenient excuse. I don't fault anyone for suspecting him over that, and I never said I accepted his explanation. I just decided to let it slide for now, because I was tired and there was no real point in harping on about that point before others had even chimed in.

The other thing you mentioned was that I was apparently trying to send Scooter a discreet message that I spotted an inconsistency in his play. If I wanted to do that, I would probably use e-mail instead, don't you think?

In short, it seems like you're suspecting Scooter a bit more than I am. Or at least, I am willing to cut him a little more slack than you are. Lynching Scooter feels wrong when players like TT and Sareln haven't even posted once on day 3 yet. I don't think I should aggressively lead a lynch on Scooter just to prove my innocence to you. (Besides, it wouldn't.)

Here's a follow-up to the previous exercise I asked you to do: try starting with the assumption that Scooter is innocent, and see if you still think that makes me a wolf. If your suspicions towards me are predicated on him being a wolf, then he is the one you should be chasing, not me.

[zakalwe]

@Catwalk, I usually try to nip suspicions against me in the bud. Not necessarily because I fear getting lynched, but because it is a distraction for the village to follow false leads. And I still believe Serdoa is a villager. I think a more wolfish response is to ignore accusations and just answer them by going on the offense.

About my night-time suggestion that I tone it down: that was partly an honest question, and partly to see how people would respond to it. (I also asked the inverse question: should I go on an aggressive rampage instead?) Turns out nobody spoke up to ask me to stop pointing fingers, while Injera said I should perhaps be a bit more fluid in my voting. Not sure what to make of that, if anything. So I went with my own feeling, which was that the last thing this village needs is another quiet player.

I also said I'd keep looking for villager vibes; there are none in your most recent post.

[Serdoa]

I can tell you right away, it is not zak. It is your actions alone that make me suspect you being a wolf. I'm working on it, 2/3 through your posts. It is interesting what one finds if he reads again without the "zak is a villager"-glasses on (which I unfortunately had on Day 1 and on too much of Day 2).

Oh, as for your point that you would use email if you want to send scooter a discret message: But you had to answer somehow to his "I said negative stuff to uberfish" in-thread. Can't let that go zak, somebody would go back and reread it and question him about it.

Let me rehash the situation for the others:

1. zak explains to scooter that he finds him guilty because of scooter joining the bandwagon on uberfish by rehashing the arguments for uberfish guilt from others

2. scooter answers that he finds this accusation to be untrue and explains the first part of this suspicious post ("It may not be shocking necessarily") by stating that he wrote that because it was for no one shocking that he joined on uberfish as he had lashed out on him 2-3 times in the thread already at that time

3. zak friendly tells scooter that he has reread his posts from day 1 and he can't find anything which could be construed as lashing out on uberfish

4. scooter explains that was all only in his head

5. zaks silent

And so am I. I mean honestly, that is the worst theatre I've ever seen guys. I am sure zak, if in WW6 somebody would have answered you by telling you he did something in thread what he did not, you would not calmly tell him that you are really sorry that you can't find it. You would get on him for it, you would find out what is going on. But instead because he could NOT prove his arguments to be true you ... don't vote for him? Don't even question him about it anymore? Clearly, you are a villager trying to hunt wolves, how could I ever doubt you?





And how much would you bet that that someone would not state it as calmly as you did? I mean, come on man, you asked scooter something, he answered with something completely NOT verified by the thread and you... merely let him know that you don't find what he means but nevermind, you had thought he wrote that for a different reason anyway?

[Catwalk]

Likewise, you aren't giving off villager vibes either But I agree with you that much of the suspicion of you is based on scooter being a wolf as you seem to be covering for him. I don't find your explanation of the night time suggestion to be very plausible, especially after saying earlier that you wouldn't be talking at night at all. You have a history of being an active villager, to say the least. That includes missing from time to time. While I haven't read up on past games, I'd wager a guess that it's uncharacteristic of you to start doubting yourself and try to take a back seat. You're a good player, and you have a decent amount of confidence in your abilities, hit or miss. I don't find it plausible at all.