Woden's and Chevalier Mal Fet's [Insert Clever Name Here] Team Thread

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Right, so alliances are much more underwhelming than I thought. I'm operating in an EUIV mindset, but Civ diplomacy is much more limited than that. I should have known better, since I SAW that pindicator's attack on Alhambram in PBEM5 didn't suck in Jester, but I'm notoriously bad at noticing details.

Okay, so the alliance DOESN'T make us that much safer, but it should still give Rome/China pause, knowing we're locked down on that front and that any attack on us could lead to a stab in the back by Germany later. Name of the game then is to make attacking us as unattractive as possible, and I think if I can get my army upgraded I can do that - 5 knights, 5 crossbows, and (hopefully soon) 5 muskets to follow, with plenty of space to trade for time for upgrades. At sea I'll have caravels in 2 turns, with frigates as soon as I can finish the tech, and I can upgrade strategically to hopefully intimidate Sullla away.

Next turn I might offer a DOF - it'll be our last chance to get them to agree to one before the VA finishes.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Turn 113

I thought about doing a score report, and, uh, it's ugly, guys. I've badly mishandled the last 20 turns or so and fallen very far behind indeed. Woden and I lag about 100 points behind both viable teams, with no real excuses left. Just poor development on my part - Singaboy is doing a much better job supporting Sullla than I am Woden, I think. Research rates vary - Archduke is at 120, Sullla at 90, Woden at 80 science, roughly similar numbers for culture only I replace Woden, but the final outcome is the same is that Archduke's resurgence has neatly slipped us to third place again, and Emperor is fast making up ground. 

So the demographics don't look good! But, given time, I think we can turn this around! Last time we had a military build up, we hurt our neighbor, and then we surged to equal Singaboy/Sullla's team - before a renewed military buildup again led to us slipping behind. However, we have fundamental sources of strength: Lots of cities and land for more cities, and more potential to develop new districts and the like. Archduke I think is roughly hitting his peak, while Woden and I can still improve a lot. Obviously I'd rather be in his shoes than ours, but we're not out of this thing yet. and if we are by God I'll make it entertaining at least

Enough of that. Let's look at the turn. I start by receiving an inspiration from Woden:




Excellent! This enables a policy swap in 2 turns, just after the Arsenal is completed. Limes will come out, Professional Army will go in. Trade Confederation out, Serfdom in long enough to finish the 2 builders I have in queue, then Exploration will hit and I can go full economy. 

At the front, Japper is moving hsi army to confront Sullla:




Damn, I really wish I had my knights upgraded already. If I had my armored units and crossbows, I'd gladly slug through the walls and poach Kinsasha as a flank guard for Nan Madol. It'd be a really defensible, solid base for the army. I might still try and push that way, but I'm 3 turns away at least from being able to move units in force and that's almost certainly far too long. Again, our weak gold generation comes back to bite us. I think that's the main source of our problems since Sullla declared war - I didn't have enough gold to upgrade both my troops and Woden's, and as a result I've been a spectator to the war, watching with my outdated units as Woden had to slug through the teeth of Cornflakes' defenses. It doesn't help that Cornflakes had a much larger, much more modern army than Japper, and it was well deployed to defend against us while Japper's was out of place to face Rome. 




The Kongo capital has fallen, and Roman units will no doubt be pushing north now to Kinsasha. I need my army upgraded and in place around Nan Madol double-quick. 

Here's the sitch at Navarino:




Swapping to a galley, which as predicted takes 2 turns. The finish time is the same either way, but the galley is essentially "free" production from Maritime Industries, so I may as well get a unit out of it. With no more chops, we'd finish the Arsenal on t119, which I think would still be in time to beat Sullla, but 'tis very close. Check out Rome's Arsenal:




Now check out mine:




Yes, yes, mine is prettier because it's in color, but if you look at the scaffolding we're almost exactly the same amount along, with perhaps a slight edge to Navarino in this instance - but Firenze probably has stronger production than Navarino. If Sullla has chops in the offing to rush the wonder next turn, he might still get it. But next turn will be his last chance. 

All stands in readiness:




Tomorrow will be the culmination of 30 turns of planning and work. I've bent my whole civ on this goal, fingers crossed, boys and girls.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

And I just realized that I forgot to send the DoF. :I 

Well, if I don't finish the VA during my turn, I'll send one to Singaboy on the off chance that it completes at the start of turn 115 instead of hte end of 114. I'm not sure when production happens, but I think it's the start of turn. If they accept, great, 30 turns where they can do squat about all my ships popping out.

[Woden]

Nubia-Turn 113

The race to see who can eliminate Japper or Cornflakes first in on. Open the save with...

Which allows a policy swap. I go with... 

I take out Feudal Contracts for Professional Armies and switch Natural Philosophy for Colonization. The plans is to kick out at least 3 settlers in the next 10 turns and maybe a bunch more. I do have many nice city sites and hopefully it is not too late to expand. 

I get a bunch of boost notifications... 

I get the Printing and Astronomy boosts for finishing the 2 universities and the boost for Banking for finishing Guilds.I switch research to Gunpowder next turn and be able to upgrade at least 1 musket. 

My 3rd trader at Horus is ready for a route...

I was planning on sending this guy to Traueret for the road but decided on Nu-Kandy to get a road in that direction plus the food yield was better and the trader will only take 1 round trip for 24 turns versus 2 round trips to Traueret for 36 turns. This way I can get a different trade route going sooner. 

Over at the front...

First, notice that Japper's capital and his southern city are no longer his. This is going to be a race to see who can get knocked out first. The terrain in the north is pretty dense and will take a while for Rome to make it to Japper's last city and Cornflakes' capital is pretty dense with units, making it slow going for me. Luckily, I think Cornflakes is pretty spent now and I should be able to kill his units with few losses. 

I start pushing on his crossbow on the Holy Site by moving 2 crossbows up...

 

I move 2 other crossbows up to apply pressure and see Cornflakes has another crossbow sitting SE of the mountain that I can hit with my horseman, so I shot it once with a crossbow...

 

Then kill it with the 2 horseman...

 

Here is how it looks at the end of the turn...

 

I will probably lose one of the horseman but should be able to his horseman an dat least 1 crossbow next turn. I did move a few knights up and will have them swing around south to block any advancement by Rome if he tries to steal Cornflakes' capital from me. Once the crossbows are taking out, I will start working on the city walls while I wait for the Ram to finish and travel over to the city. Maybe I will even be able to bring them down before the Ram finishing, IDK. Cornflakes did finish a knight but it should be his last one since his sources of iron are gone. He has 2 knights now and they could cause some trouble but I don't think it will be too much. 

Lastly, here is the score since I haven't posted it in a while...

 

I really haven't paid much attention to it lately since we are still 3rd but did notice that Germany/Russia now lead by 1 point. Don't know if this is new but is the first turn I noticed it. Good job guys! Still a tight game and I feel we are still in it, especially with CMF finishing the VA next turn.

[Woden]

I went through my reports to figure out the losses on each side of this war. I wanted to post it here so I don't have to go back and figure it out again.

As of T113, here are the losses of the war:
Cornflakes has lost 5 Knights, 4 Crossbows, 2 Horsemen, 2 Warriors, and 1 Chariot

I have lost 4 Knights, 2 Crossbows, 1 Horseman, and a Ram.

I hope I didn't miss anything but it looks like I am coming out ahead in this war. I also have 2 cities and will some have a 3rd.

[Woden]

Nubia-Turn 114

Open the save to...

This brings me to the Renaissance Era and I get new quests for most of the city states. One wants a Commercial Hub, 2 want the boost for Cartography, 1 the boost for Square Rigging, and 1 wants a Bombard. All achievable within the next 10 or so turns, 3 of which CMF will give me as he heads to get Frigates. 

At the war front... 

Cornflakes did the smart thing for his position now and that was bring out his knights. He killed both my horsemen. I shift units around and kill 1 knight and a crossbow and red-line another crossbow...

Sorry, I didn't get any good action shots, they were all covered up by the pop-up. Now, there is a good chance that I will lose a knight next turn but I should be able take out his remaining units unless he something in the fog. I just hope he continues to attack with the knight and keeps it out of the city. That way, I can do more damage with my crossbows and might not need the ram after all. I upgrade a musket at the southern capture city (I need to rename this city at some point). That is about it for my turn. I move some units around 

One thing I did notice...

Both TheArchduke and Sullla have 3 envoys into Geneva. CMF, I think you made the right call to conquer this city state. It will hurt them more than it is currently helping us. I think we should go after it after I finish Cornflakes. This will give it time to finish the university it is currently working on. With the campus, library, and university, it should have the same science I am getting from the envoys...but I also think it might be best for you to have the city. Speak of which, I was thinking of giving you Khmer's northern city and keeping the other 2 for myself. That way you can have a block of cities near Nan Madol to help protect it and I can have some in the south to establish a base of operations in this area. I am also planning on placing a city in the middle of that jungle, just east of the Khmer capital and burning all that wood down. I place a pin where I am thinking. I don't know if it will screw up you dot map, but you will have to let me know if it does.

Loses this turn: 
CF: 1 knight and 1 crossbow
Me: 2 Horsemen

Edit: Actually after looking at the jungle area, it might be best to do 2 cities and try and grab as much as I can.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Turn 114

Okay, so the question you all want to know is - did I finish the Arsenal this turn? To save you skimming my post if you don't care about anything else, no, unless production is applied at end of turn. I'm pretty sure production happens at the start, though, so Sullla gets to play his Friday turn all happy and blithely unaware that here's one wonder, at least, that I shall have. At the start of turn 115 the Arsenal will process all the production I chopped into it this turn and complete. Unless it processes at the end, in which case Singaboy will spot it when he plays. 

Now that's out of the way, let's look at my turn.




Woden finishes gunpowder, which triggers the eureka for me. We're definitely hitting tech pretty quickly - faster, in fact, than my ability to upgrade. Right now I have 4 archers, 5 chariots, 5 swords, and I don't-know-how-many galleys and quadriremes to upgrade (I think I have 9 galleys and 4 quads at the moment but I'd have to doublecheck, there's a lot standing by for upgrades). With only 90 gold per turn at the moment, I simply don't have the cash to upgrade. Swapping my trade routes to gold generation instead of science and culture solves that problem, but slows down my tech. Right now that's clearly the right call to make, but dang. I was really hoping that it was possible to run an economy just on massed trade routes, but it really doesn't scale once you hit Natural Philosophy/Education - campuses leave my trade routes in the dust. 

Singaboy comes offering a trade:




Now, I'm not sure when the VA will process. But this is basically my last turn to maybe get a guaranteed 30 turn peace with these guys. So I go ahead and take the trade - it seems foolish to gratuitously signal hostility to Singaboy when I'm hoping to lure him into my camp. It's not like I'm under any delusions that accepting will make him DoF me out of gratitude, but it doesn't hurt. I send DoFs to both Singaboy and Sullla - Singaboy can discuss it with Sullla and pass the turn as normal, and Sullla can implement their decision on his turn. 

And then the same turn I get the wonder. :




Navarino is chopped out and will be good for little else besides unit production the rest of the game. It's done its job, though. I'll use the last builder to improve some mines and get production restored to the city, it'll be a great source of units. 

With nothing to chop, late-game cities are pretty useless, I think. That's the huge mistake I made by not pushing expansion at turn 75. The 30 turns I lost there, while pushing culture and science and keeping competitive with my bag of charlatan's tricks, basically shot myself in the foot. I teched ahead more rapidly than I should have on my economic base, which WOULD have been fine, except I think I've inadvertantly priced myself out of a lot of districts! My new cities will be unable to produce them in any reasonable timeframe. Chops scale, of course, but that means I need to build the chopping unit basically from scratch, and  soon I'll lose the ability to build cheap quads and have to go for more expensive frigates (or do agoge chops). So, lesson learned: Keep pushing expansion, even if it takes 15 turns to finish the damn settler. I'd be in much more competitive shape if I'd done that.

The other lesson I've learned is better city placement. Second ring tiles, unless you purchase them, mean very little. Your city needs great first-ring tiles to expand. Salamis, Trafalgar, and Navarino are all great cities. After a lot of work, Leyte and Actium are getting there, and Aboukir still needs a builder to really shine. My few cities have been slow-developing, basically, and I let them stagnate at low pop sizes for too long, because I didn't have the time to build granaries or aqueducts. I was in great shape on turn 75 as my first RNDs and traders finished, but I let the power surge there lull me. Next time, I won't do that. 

Anyway, that's my analysis of why our team is in third right now: Poor city growth on my part. You gotta do balanced builds in all cities, need to ensure they can grow steadily, because costs scale up quick in this game. Don't let your tech outpace your production, or you'll hamper yourself later in the game and be entirely reliant on chops to produce at all - as I am now. Never stop pushing expansion until the medieval or renaissance ages. It is possible to build too many settlers, of course, but I'm on the wrong side of that line - I haven't built enough. 




Is the position recoverable? I think so. I will be out to a similar number of cities as every other team in another handful of turns. They will be young cities, but on good land. I can get them basic RND infrastructure, which lets them trade and contribute gold/science/culture while building units. At home, I need more robust research infrastructure - one or two more campuses, kitted out with all their buildings.  It will take time to do this, time while our enemies will continue to build and tech, so the X factor I have to pin my hopes on is an alliance with one of the other two teams. They need to fight, and give Woden and I an opening. The potential for our team is there, we just need the time to realize it. We've caught up magnificently before, and we can do it again. 

Right now the name of the game is gold. Need it to upgrade and be ready to face a potential Roman/Chinese attack, and cover myself long enough to get shipbuilding cities up. The long-term power curve at sea favors me now - the race would ALREADY be over if I had a canal, but, well, I don't. Nothing you can do about that, so I'm forced to build from scratch a navy capable of challenging all of Sullla's, from a smaller number of cities. I can do that with RNDs, GAs, and the VA, just again - need time. 

An overview:




I failed to take a picture, but Sullla blew most of his and Singaboy's treasury on a flurry of upgrades, including Caravels. I'll have a Caravel fleet ready next turn to deter naval aggression at Nan Madol, but square rigging will take a while. I need ot research gunpowder, upgrade a musket, and then kill something with it - which will certainly take longer than just straight researching the tech by hand. So I think I have to once again eat the extra cost. That sucks, but whaddayagonnado? After Square Rigging, gunpowder, then economic techs hopefully.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Woden, note that Geneva can also be taken from the sea - I could upgrade the navy I've built in the process of chopping the VA, which would be 3 frigates and 3 caravels, and attack that way. Only if we need the land army opposite Rome, because it will take me 14 turns to reach Square Rigging from our present time. I might be able to get that down a little bit, but I have no quick way to expand science at the moment.

The only other thing I wonder about - what if I took Cornflakes' tundra city? I can squeeze a Dockyard there, while his northern city will need a more-expensive Commercial Hub. Either way is fine, and the base near Nan Madol makes sense, so up to you. Just something else to consider.

[Woden]

If you want the tundra city, you can have it. It does have a source of iron and a third ring niter. So it may be better for you than the northern city.

One suggestion on your island cities, build a lighthouse right after the RND. This will add 1 to all coastal tiles, then go high food to grow the city fast. The key to late game cities is to set them to fast growth while producing infrastructure. Also, don't build units with them, let your core do that because they do it faster. This way, it doesn't take new cities long to get them up to speed.

[Ituralde]

I was planning on sending this guy to Traueret for the road but decided on Nu-Kandy to get a road in that direction plus the food yield was better and the trader will only take 1 round trip for 24 turns versus 2 round trips to Traueret for 36 turns. This way I can get a different trade route going sooner. 

I apologize if this is obvious or common knowledge, but where do you get the information from that he will only make one round trip to Nu-Kandy and two to Traueret?
I have no idea how long trade routes go and the closest I have gotten in my head was that the trader makes two round trips. I assume there is some cut-off point for that?
Just really looking to learn here, as that's one aspect that has been puzzling me.