WW11 - Civilization

[Catwalk]

My vote is going to be switched to Catwalk because of this odd feud that is going on between him and Lewwyn. Admittedly, they could argue it is due to past bad blood between them, but I also think it is ideal cover for a wolf.

There's been no feud going on from my side, though. Look at my comments about Lewwyn, all I've done is voice suspicions and taunt him back whenever he's crossed the line and ignored my arguments. I think Lewwyn is the one using a cover, I'm merely pursuing a suspicion. I'm not picking a fight here, he is. Am I supposed to simply not vote for him regardless?

Secondarily, I also agreed with most of Lewwyns argument about Mardoc and think that Catwalk trying to pick it apart seems a bit spurious, particularly when Catwalk is the person constantly going on about not splitting the vote too much.

What is your take on his conflicting statements about Mardoc? I very specifically stated that I'm not on a crusade a few posts up, and mentioned that Ichabod would be my next suspect if the Lewwyn vote doesn't gain traction. We have 12h until lynching, I think it's too soon to put up this argument.

[slowcheetah]

There is only a feud because it is you and Lewwyn, literally everything you have said to him in this thread has been greeted with (I feel undeserved bile). However, I still think that a clever person could use this to find a hiding place for themselves.

Argue against them. Spark the feud. Continue arguing. Although you aren't actually doing that much, people sense that you are involved in the game, and thus you seem less wolflike.

I thought Lewwyns, Mardoc argument was pretty good myself. So I viewed your use of it as a catalyst towards the cycle listed above. Annoyingly, Lewwyn decided he had had enough while I was posting. So I can't see how you would have chosen to view had my post been in the middle.

As for Lewwyns argument itself I remember reading through it and aggreeing with the line of thought. I can't be bothered (or really have the time) to go and analyse it thoroughly though. My thoughts on it were that Lewwyn was taking a look at someone who hadn't been in the spotlight much, and gradually finding them innocent. I didn't read his post as him 'humping Mardoc's leg' but more like his later pronouncement of Mardoc probably being innocent.

In a sidepoint, levels of verbosity are affected by drunkeness in different ways. I'm usually only a little less understandable when very drunk. Walking straight on the other hand...

[Catwalk]

You don't have to read through much, though. Read post #655 and zakalwe's exchange with Lewwyn a few posts up. My case is based both on his contradictions and on his initial strong claim of Mardoc's innocence. It's unusual to make a claim that strongly without any kind of evidence.

Are you suggesting that I should ignore Lewwyn completely as a suspect because he reacts that way to everything I say? I did nothing to rile him up, he made his usual derogatory comments and I keep going for the ball. How is this a feud? I'm fine with going for other targets and have stated as much, he votes for me simply because he doesn't like me and sees a chance to get rid of me. And then says he's done talking to me. Convenient vote parking spot much? Combine it with being tired of playing WW because something went wrong in FFH14, and it's starting to look a bit too convenient.

On a related note, wha's your take on Lewwyn's alignment?

[slowcheetah]

I read through your post, just didn't reread Lewwyns, Mardoc marathon.

I'm not suggesting you ignore Lewwyn completely if you are a villager, although due to his constant blowing you off you probably wont get anywhere.

What I am suggesting is that you are a wolf, and the fight with Lewwyn was good cover to make it look like you are doing something. Hell, I've only been here for one WW game and even I can see that your and Lewwyns arguments always turn out the same way, mainly due to Lewwyn as far as I can see.

As for Lewwyn himself, from seeing his posts around the forums I buy that rage at one game could transfer over to annoyance and apathy in the other, and I thought his Mardoc post (his main contribution) was well thought through. His vote for you seems to be a convenient place to put his rage. He's leaning innocent for me.

[Catwalk]

I'll try one more time then. Lewwyn is flip flopping all over the place about how strongly he feels about Mardoc's innocence. Do you find it credible that he first states that there is no doubt in his mind that Mardoc is innocent, switches to saying he's leaning towards innocent, then switches back to saying he's multi-flavoured explosion innocent? Switches depending on who he's talking to. Also, do you find it credible that he pronounces Mardoc innocent with no doubt in his mind based on zero evidence? We have no knowledge of who's a wolf, everything is speculation at this time. I find his statement of certainty to be highly suspicious. Does this make me look like a wolf to you? If not for this, what makes me look like a wolf to you? Are you willing to entertain the notion that Lewwyn has a highly convenient way to dismiss my accusation of him, or is there no doubt in your mind that he's genuine?

[uberfish]

Catwalk (4) - Lewwyn Mardoc Selrahc Slowcheetah
Rowain (3) - Novice Sareln Scooter
Gaspar (2) - Ichabod MJW
Ichabod (1) - Zakalwe
Lewwyn (1) - Catwalk
Scooter (1) - Gaspar
Selrahc (1) - Tasunke
Slowcheetah (1) - Rowain

Not voting - Cyneheard

Deadline in just over 11 hours but results will be late

[slowcheetah]

I'll try one more time then. Lewwyn is flip flopping all over the place about how strongly he feels about Mardoc's innocence. Do you find it credible that he first states that there is no doubt in his mind that Mardoc is innocent, switches to saying he's leaning towards innocent, then switches back to saying he's multi-flavoured explosion innocent? Switches depending on who he's talking to. Also, do you find it credible that he pronounces Mardoc innocent with no doubt in his mind based on zero evidence? We have no knowledge of who's a wolf, everything is speculation at this time. I find his statement of certainty to be highly suspicious. Does this make me look like a wolf to you? If not for this, what makes me look like a wolf to you? Are you willing to entertain the notion that Lewwyn has a highly convenient way to dismiss my accusation of him, or is there no doubt in your mind that he's genuine?

In this case you pressured Lewwyn, on the basis that his pronouncement of Mardoc as innocent was inconsistent in its delivery (out of interest where does he say Mardoc is multi-flavoured explosion innocent, I couldn't find it?). Mardoc was under very little pressure from the village at the time. If Lewwyn and Mardoc were a wolf pair, why would Lewwyn want to attract attention to the fact when there was virtually no pressure on Mardoc?

I think you saw the situation, and saw a slight hole. You knew exactly how Lewwyn would react if you said anything to him, and used that as an excuse to start an argument. When the argument breaks down and becomes a deadend. You can point to it, say 'look I was being a helpful villager' if suspicion comes on you, despite the fact that nothing useful was ever going to come out of it.

This incident is the one that has put you ahead of the other suspects in my book. Before this I wasn't sure whether you were villager or wolf, but now you definitely seem more wolf. This isn't an open and shut case, peoples arguments for other's may prove more persuasive to me, but for now I'm happy to leave my vote on you.

[Rowain]

If Lewwyn and Mardoc were a wolf pair, why would Lewwyn want to attract attention to the fact when there was virtually no pressure on Mardoc?

Such a proclamation would not happen if both were wolves. But it can be that a wolf does it (=Lewwyn) to a) look more villagerish and b) to take a villager down with him should he get cought.

It can also be an honest try by a villager to talk about his suspicions and how they changed.

Since slowcheetah has started to contribute I will now move ma vote to Selrahc

[Catwalk]

In this case you pressured Lewwyn, on the basis that his pronouncement of Mardoc as innocent was inconsistent in its delivery (out of interest where does he say Mardoc is multi-flavoured explosion innocent, I couldn't find it?). Mardoc was under very little pressure from the village at the time. If Lewwyn and Mardoc were a wolf pair, why would Lewwyn want to attract attention to the fact when there was virtually no pressure on Mardoc?

You're almost convinced he is innocent? And likewise for Mardoc? Any other convictions? I didn't think you would be so quick to clear people.

Nah. My feelings on Mardoc are stronger than on Ichabod's. I haven't gone through all of Ichabod's posts or anything. I think he's plain old innocent, not multi-flavored explosion innocent like Mardoc.

Read up and you'll see that I don't suspect them of being a wolf pair. This kind of mutual reassurance would indeed be far too risky. I suspect Lewwyn of being a wolf, and have no particular suspicion of Mardoc. In the event that Lewwyn turns up wolf, I'd consider Mardoc mostly cleared. I find it particularly suspicious that Mardoc was under little suspicion at the time Lewwyn pronounced his verdict. I can understand wanting to defend someone who's at risk of hanging if you feel the arguments against him are poorly founded. I don't see the same benefit when it's someone not under suspicion. There was little interest in Lewwyn's earlier suspicions of Mardoc, I think he did his analysis solely to appear helpful (without actually doing anything).

I think you saw the situation, and saw a slight hole. You knew exactly how Lewwyn would react if you said anything to him, and used that as an excuse to start an argument. When the argument breaks down and becomes a deadend. You can point to it, say 'look I was being a helpful villager' if suspicion comes on you, despite the fact that nothing useful was ever going to come out of it.

You could say that regardless of what arguments I use against Lewwyn. Are you saying that I cannot succesfully pursue a suspicion of Lewwyn if he ignores me? To me, that makes him look even more suspicious. Blatantly ignoring accusations of you is not pro-town, and he has no excuse for ignoring me other than being grumpy.

I find it interesting how selectively you respond to my points. My last question was if there was any doubt in your mind about the sincerity of Lewwyn's outbursts, and you instead reply that I seem increasingly wolf to you. I also find it interesting how certain you are in spite of apparently not really having read up on the exchanges. I have a hard time seeing this as villager play, and I think you'll have a hard time explaining yourself if I hang. That said, if you and Lewwyn are both wolves you're making a very risky play here. I don't see any way you'd defend him this strongly if he was your wolf buddy based on a suspicion that isn't gaining much traction.

Also, you still haven't addressed Lewwyn flip flopping on how he feels about Mardoc's innocence.

[Catwalk]

Such a proclamation would not happen if both were wolves. But it can be that a wolf does it (=Lewwyn) to a) look more villagerish and b) to take a villager down with him should he get cought.

It can also be an honest try by a villager to talk about his suspicions and how they changed.

Since slowcheetah has started to contribute I will now move ma vote to Selrahc

I agree with your assessments of what might have motivated him. Him and Lewwyn both being wolves seems highly unlikely. However, I think as a villager his conclusion would more likely read "I'm moving away from my suspicion of Mardoc, I didn't find anything damning in my analysis" rather than "There is no doubt in my mind anymore, Mardoc is innocent". Combined with switching back and forth on what he thinks he said, I find his conclusion highly suspicious.