Realms Beyond Werewolf 2 : Game Thread

[Sareln]

I agree with Irgy, baaaah baaaah. Grass is delicious

The only other thing worth mentioning at the moment that I can think of; Our last mayor was the devil. Here's a question: Who voted him in? Well, let's have a look:
Sareln, sunrise089, Serdoa, haphazard, Cyneheard, Luddite, Roland

Of those, the following aren't dead:
Sareln, sunrise089, Serdoa, haphazard, Roland

If sunrise is indeed the seer, his days are probably now numbered. In which case we now have quite a short list of potentially quite good targets. Obviously not all the wolves voted for him, and indeed they didn't need to. Sandover actually even voted for the next closest candidate! But I'd be surprised if there's not at least a one or two wolves on that list.

Sareln Checking In.

I vote Selrahc for mayor since he did such a fine job running the last game, and I vote to lynch Irgy to put him out of his rules misery.

Bottom line, mayor vote on day 1 was a shot in the dark for me. Managed to choose the devil though, not exactly the best of choices no?

Lets puzzle through some of this from my perspective.

I know I'm innocent, so we'll work from that assumption leaving us with:

Roland - (Talks a-lot, appears to be leading a villager bloc, helped nail Sandover with his words, but waffled with his vote, lead the lynching of Meiz [a villager] , emotional and botched the seer-buffer, but still got his man in Selrahc on day 3)

Sunrise089 - (Quiet, Professed Seer had his cover blown, probably dead-man-walking now that the Baner is dead)

I need to go look up Serdoa's and Haphazard's comments and will come back to this.

EDIT: Change Quite --> Quiet

[Roland]

As for mayor, the main reason I'm not voting for Roland is his vote switch on day 1 and indecisiveness on day 3. He does the talking, but when it comes to voting he's the one with the least strength of faith in his own convictions. And I agree with Gaspar, he doesn't need more stress. I'll go with Lewwyn for now, though consider me a swinging voter.

It's worth noting that the reason I switched on Day 3 was because I felt people were writing off what I had to say on the basis that I was "following along". On that note, I figured I'd take my vote off for a bit. I wasn't looking for anyone to follow me - my mind was made up. I just wanted people to take my thoughts seriously when I was working so hard to get them out there, and in such little time.

As for the stress, I can't say I see the Mayor position as being overly stressful. Also, I'm trying not to be defensive about it here (the stress comments). :P No worries. All I really need is a good night's sleep (or a couple). Unfortunately, they've been eluding me all week long. So it goes. Another week or so and I should, theoretically, be back to something akin to "normal" for me. I hope.

Anyway, enough distractions. While I agree with the arguments about following the Seer's scry, I still want more discussion from everyone possible. We won't have the Seer forever, and especially if it turns out he's wrong I want something to fall back on. We didn't lynch Sandover with the Seer's help, nor Selrahc. We can do this without a Seer (and a Baner) - it just takes more effort.

Of course, I agree we should utilize the Seer for as long as we have him. Hence my desire for discussion as well as the Seer's visions.

[Kyan]

Fire&Ice- I'm sorry but that's retarded and you've likely just cost us the game with over-zealous moderating.

MJW edited his posts to put them together into one. Anyone who has the thread subscribed to can attest to that. It was a weird thing to do, granted, but certainly not worthy of being blocked.

Hell, if you'd have blocked or removed him for talking about his PM at the start of the game- that i could understand. However, now you've given the wolves free reign to eat sunrise tonight followed by everyone whose clearly been on the villager side. I, along with many others, have devoted stupid amounts of hours to ensuring the villagers win this. We *would* have been in a fantastically strong position. Now the wolves have free reign. A conscientious decision, along with a lot of thought was put into who the baner was protecting tonight. Time and effort that *YOU* could have prevented. MJW approached me awhile ago saying he thinks he may have been role-blocked so i approached you for confirmation. No comment from you, not even a reply. Now you make this call? Joke.

What a waste of time.

[Kyan]

Oh and since i was vague in my last post, by some time ago, i mean more than 24 hours. I was going to edit my last post to include this rather than make a new post but my next lynch vote would probably be negated.

[Roland]

Kyan, I understand your frustation, but you are not helping the situation. What's done is done - let it lie. We're still in a very strong position, and we'll still win this. I won your faith by killing a Werewolf on Day 1. Let me keep some of that faith now, instead of assuming all is lost if (when) we lose the Seer.

BTW - I'm not voting for Uberfish until I get confirmation of the Seer's next target, either in public or private - I don't care. Bottom line, I have no reason to trust Sunrise. I have no reason to think he's a 'Wolf, just that I agree with Selrahc 100%: Seer + Owl with nothing else is imbalancing. I'd wager money Fire & Ice put the Fool in. After all, he dug up some obscure role (the Tracker) and threw him in - why would he go out of his way to take the Fool out? Doesn't make sense to me.

It just feels like Gaspar (dare I say Meiz?) all over again, except now we "know" he's a 'Wolf - the Seer said so. We ASSUME there's only the Seer role, just as we ASSUMED MJW was the Baner. We also ASSUMED both Sareln and Selrahc were innocent - look how half of that turned out. Everyone's so quick to complain about bandwagoning, and following the leader, but yet here we go down that very same road.

No offense to you Sunrise. This actually has nothing to do with you personally, nor anything you've contributed nor lack thereof. This has to do with logic, for me: why would Fire & Ice go out of his way to dig up the Tracker (Owl) and add him to the Villager's repertoire, yet not keep the Fool? Remember, he didn't even post the Devil publicly until we pestered him. Also remember, everyone made it a point to note that he said secret "roles" - who's to say there's only two?

I'm exercising caution here, especially since there's too many assumptions for this to be truly "foolproof" (pun intended). I'm waiting to hear the Seer's latest scry, along with the Owl's. Until then, I'm not voting for anyone - especially not someone whom I feel might very well be a Villager, and especially since the idea that there is no Fool is far from proven. Think about this: if there really was another Seer out there to disprove Sunrise, would you stick your neck out after yesterday if it was you? I sure as hell wouldn't.

Just saying.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

If you're not convinced on Sareln, and want an alternate line of investigation... I'd suggest looking into exactly why Mr Nice Guy claimed he had evidence against Gaspar, and hasn't produced any.

I don't mean to feed the trolls ... ahem... wolves, but I want to address this in case Gaspar's name comes up for Day 5, after we've hung you from the gallows. On day one, Gaspar posted this:

Despite my own personal wall of text on the matter, I decided I should follow my own advice. Voting for Kyan was a joke, voting for Rowain was to see what happened. I have my answers there. Let's get an answer to a new question:

Sandover

I asked him privately, and later publicly what answers he'd gotten from his Rowain and Sandover votes. I'd still love to know what answers he gathered, and if he truly is a non-unique villager like me I would see no reason not to share it, at least privately. I would keep his response to myself but publicly share what I thought of the response, if that makes sense.

Later, Rowain summed up my thoughts pretty well. I commented on it here:http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showpost....tcount=607 and here: http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showpost....tcount=610. All I really want are these few answers. And while we have gotten many, many answers (including that today's obvious lynch is Uberfish) this is one answer I still haven't gotten. That's pretty suspicious to me.

Gaspar's voting pattern is also too unusual for me to overlook. Day one he tried (unsuccessfully) to sway the votes against MJW. --- Granted, I'm not *that* disappointed that MJW was eaten as I think he had the potential to be a net negative. But you'll recall I strongly thought we should lynch Sandover on day one. Day two is a non-vote. Then day three not only does Gaspar wait to vote until it's clear he can't save his devil-leader, but his devil-leader refused to try and stir the pot against him. Clearly, Selrahc didn't want to vote for Gaspar even though I wanted to help him get a swing going. If Selrahc had taken that offer, don't you think he could have lived and helped get the villager Gaspar lynched? More than anything else, I think the fact that Selrahc in his devil role refused to throw Gaspar under the bus proves that Gaspar is not the innocent villager he claims to be.

Watch out for Gaspar this round, and consider him strongly for a Day 5 lynch.

Now that I've posted a novel of my own, I still stand firmly beside my Uberfish vote. As wacky as it seems, Roland's owl/seer/mason/baner "Network" seems to have something right, and I have no reasonable choice other than to trust them today and vote for Uberfish --- someone that I had pegged as early as day one myself!

[Dantski]

Personal suspect list at present, happy enough to post this because it doesn't really matter if wolves kill me!

Uberfish
Gaspar
Ug

Uberfish is obvious, the result of his lynch will provide useful information as to whether sunrise is the real seer of if there's another silent one out there.

Gaspar has just played so very very suspiciously with all his vote switching early on and his refusal to air his thoughts.

Ug, just like Sareln he's really playing the grey man role very well indeed and hasn't drawn any attention at all. Also he voted for me and I'm due some retribution! :neenernee

[Roland]

Later, Rowain summed up my thoughts pretty well. I commented on it here:http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showpost....tcount=607 and here: http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showpost....tcount=610. All I really want are these few answers. And while we have gotten many, many answers (including that today's obvious lynch is Uberfish) this is one answer I still haven't gotten. That's pretty suspicious to me.

While I cannot speak directly for Gaspar, nor can I speak directly to the first question, I can answer the second - considering I was the one who posed said request to Rowain.

I was using Gaspar to my own ends. I think I've made that plainly clear before now. He has never been a part of the Network, and part of that is precisely because of what you describe: his posts do not leave enough to judge him by. However, I'm a firm believer that actions speak louder than words, and in that regard Gaspar has always been 100% behind anything I've asked of him - even if it went against his own suspicions or desires. Some might say that is obviously a 'Wolf ploy to gain my trust - to which I answer, how can it be, when on Day 4 he still has not done so? Others might note the other side of the coin: that he is, in fact, a Villager who's willing to do whatever it takes to help the cause of the Village and win - even if he means drawing fire for his (in)actions.

Moreover, no one seems to give much regard to my points about Day 2. Everyone is more than eager to jump on me, and my bloc, for the botched Meiz vote, but no one has addressed my query: what if Day 2 was set up from the start, by the 'Wolves? What if both Meiz and Gaspar are Villagers?

Look back at the summary of Day 2.

Lynch Votes:
9 = Meiz: Lewwyn, Gaspar, Sunrise089, Roland, MJW, Kyan, Luddite, Ug the Barbarian, Sareln
7 = Gaspar: Dantski, Irgy, haphazard1, Mr. Nice Guy, Selrahc, Meiz, Serdoa
1 = Selrahc: Uberfish
1 = Sunrise089: Scooter

No Votes:
Rowain

Summary of Changes:
Kyan: Voted for Serdoa, switched to Meiz
Luddite: Voted for Sunrise089, switched to Meiz
Meiz: Voted for Sunrise089, switched to No Vote, switched to Gaspar
MJW: Voted for Kyan, switched to Sunrise089, switched to Meiz
Rowain: Voted for Gaspar, switched to No Vote
Serdoa: Voted for Sunrise089, switched to Kyan, switched to No Vote, switched to Gaspar
Uberfish: Voted for Sunrise089, switched to Gaspar, switched to Selrahc
Ug the Barbarian: Voted for Meiz, switched to Sunrise089, switched to No Vote, switched to Meiz

Sequence of Events:
[noparse]
1) Uberfish: Voted for Sunrise089
2) MJW: Voted for Kyan
3) Scooter: Voted for Sunrise089
4) Lewwyn: Voted for Meiz
5) Gaspar: Voted for Meiz
6) MJW: Switched to Sunrise089
7) Ug the Barbarian: Voted for Meiz
8) Ug the Barbarian: Switched to Sunrise089
9) Meiz: Voted for Sunrise089
10) Kyan: Voted for Serdoa
11) Serdoa: Voted for Sunrise089
12) Luddite: Voted for Sunrise089
13) Dantski: Voted for Gaspar
14) Sunrise089: Voted for Meiz
15) Serdoa: Switched to Kyan
16) Roland: Voted for Meiz
17) Serdoa: Switched to No Vote
18) Irgy: Voted for Gaspar
19) MJW: Switched to Meiz
20) haphazard1: Voted for Gaspar
21) Mr. Nice Guy: Voted for Gaspar
22) Rowain: Voted for Gaspar
23) Ug the Barbarian: Switched to No Vote
24) Kyan: Switched to Meiz
25) Luddite: Switched to Meiz
26) Meiz: Switched to No Vote
27) Uberfish: Switched to Gaspar
28) Selrahc: Voted for Gasper
29) Ug the Barbarian: Switched to Meiz
30) Sareln: Voted for Meiz
31) Meiz: Switched to Gaspar
32) Uberfish: Switched to Selrahc
33) Serdoa: Switched to Gaspar
34) Rowain: Switched to No Vote
[/noparse]

Who was first on the block? Sunrise. Following that were: Kyan, Sunrise, Meiz, Meiz, switch from Kyan to Sunrise, Meiz (immediately switched to Sunrise), Sunrise, Serdoa, Sunrise, Sunrise, and so on.

Now, what do I see? I see at least two, probably three Villagers all on the block, and the Day had barely started. Gaspar had already stated his suspicions of Meiz to me prior to that day (in private), so seeing his vote on Meiz was no surprise to me - I realize I am alone in this. However, what was a surprise to me was seeing so many votes so fast - with nary a word of discussion. Does no one else find this odd? Has this never crossed anyone's mind?

Also, there's one thing that sticks out to me at present (and I know there will be many more the more time I spend looking at this): Ug the Barbarian. First to fire off on Uberfish today, yet on Day 2 he can't seem to make up his mind: Meiz, immediately switches to Sunrise, some time later switches to No Vote, and then eventually returns to Meiz. Now, I'm not calling Ug a 'Wolf here, but I am feeling that he seems entirely a "follower" to me. Why, then, has he had such vehemence towards lynching Uberfish even before Sunrise called him out? I've read Ug's "justifications", and I'm not buying it. I won't say I haven't had the same suspicions about Uberfish since Day 1 - I have, and even Uber will tell you I've made it plainly known, including in my PMs to him - but Ug has brought so little to the table thus far from what I've seen that this complete about-face is a little... unusual.

It's worth noting that, in response to Ug, Uberfish has this little gem to say:

I didn't use the phrase "obvious innocents", you're putting words in my mouth there. I think it was something like "probable villagers". Not sure how this is suspicious at all since many people post villager/suspect lists. As you can see I have my doubts about Selrahc now. He contributed very little on day 2 apart from what I thought might be a wolf slip. Sareln really hasn't been contributing either.

Why would he, if he's a 'Wolf, go out of his way to start throwing Selrahc under the bus long before anything was even brought up about him being the Devil? That has always stuck in my mind. For one, when I called out Selrahc, he IMMEDIATELY jumped on the bandwagon. My first thought was "Werewolf trying to save himself and gain credit." My second thought was "But, he's expressed doubt about Selrahc before... and it was uncannily speedy of him to drop Selrahc... if he was a 'Wolf, he wouldn't drop him that fast precisely because it would draw too much suspicion."

I'm not saying any of this is concrete proof of anything. I'm not calling Ug a 'Wolf, nor am I calling Uberfish a Villager. However, everyone is SO SURE that Sunrise is in fact the Seer that they will unquestioningly follow his vote for Uberfish - something people have been more than happy to criticize me for doing, when much (though far from all) of what I've done has been, in private if not public, thought through fairly carefully.

It's just adding up to quick. I know I said the same thing about Selrahc, but for me the choice was already made. Call it posturing if you must, but enough people were so down on me that I had to do something to prove I still had some value left; that I wasn't merely blindly following the words of another, but had actually put a great deal of thought and time into my decision. My actions are sometimes a poor judge of my thoughts, because I very often act spontaneously without explaining my reasoning - but over the years I've learned how to judge things quickly enough to know when it's safe to move, and when it's necessary to take more time and review. I knew Selrahc was in the bag, and I wanted to make sure people actually LISTENED to what I was saying - not get hung up on the fact that I was voting for Selrahc based upon the words of another. I know damn well I did a poor job of getting that across, but chalk that up to me being at work with lots of interruptions. I'm amazed I posted as much as I did - my fingers were FLYING across the keyboard.

At any rate, I'm not sold on Uberfish. I understand I hold no one's vote - I don't want to at this point. All I want is exactly what everyone was clamoring for on Days 2 and 3 - discussion. Logic. Reasoning. Open eyes and minds, instead of blind personal bias and vendettas. Gaspar and Lewwyn were all too eager to lynch Meiz based mostly on their emotional response to him, rather than a logical one. While I originally had written Meiz off as a 'Wolf, I somehow bungled that up royally and ended up "seeing" the facts to fit the theory, instead of the other way around. In that sense, I did a true 180, and it backfired - hard. That's one big reason why I took Meiz's death so personal - because I hadn't just turned my back on my convictions; I had abandoned my reasoning. It was a personal failure for me, and one I've been trying hard not to repeat (despite what I may look like from the outside).

Gaspar's voting pattern is also too unusual for me to overlook. Day one he tried (unsuccessfully) to sway the votes against MJW. --- Granted, I'm not *that* disappointed that MJW was eaten as I think he had the potential to be a net negative. But you'll recall I strongly thought we should lynch Sandover on day one. Day two is a non-vote. Then day three not only does Gaspar wait to vote until it's clear he can't save his devil-leader, but his devil-leader refused to try and stir the pot against him. Clearly, Selrahc didn't want to vote for Gaspar even though I wanted to help him get a swing going. If Selrahc had taken that offer, don't you think he could have lived and helped get the villager Gaspar lynched? More than anything else, I think the fact that Selrahc in his devil role refused to throw Gaspar under the bus proves that Gaspar is not the innocent villager he claims to be.

Watch out for Gaspar this round, and consider him strongly for a Day 5 lynch.

Now that I've posted a novel of my own, I still stand firmly beside my Uberfish vote. As wacky as it seems, Roland's owl/seer/mason/baner "Network" seems to have something right, and I have no reasonable choice other than to trust them today and vote for Uberfish --- someone that I had pegged as early as day one myself!

Your first argument against Gaspar is flimsy at best, inspired more by emotional response than logical, if you ask me. Half of Gaspar's voting on Day 1 was inspired, if not directed, by me. Day 2 he was already set for Meiz, and I just gave him all the extra reasoning he would need. He was just blind enough in his bias to take everything I laid out as gospel - until near the end. In actuality, we BOTH came to the same conclusions, but it was too late to do anything about it - we had been set up, either by our own foolishness, or by guiding 'Wolf hands. I wanted to back out on Meiz, but the will of the Network had spoken, and I obeyed. Gaspar had privately contacted me both before AND after the Meiz vote ended, and in both cases he was raising doubts about Meiz - and later confirming them.

On the other hand, I will agree that the Selrahc ties are more troublesome. However, I shall have to review the data for myself, as I don't think it's nearly cut and dry as you make it seem. Besides, I think Selrahc made the most logical (even if it may not have been the "best") move - vote for me. After all, I had lost huge credibility after Day 2, and on Day 3 he had caught me outright lying. In his position, I probably would have done the same. How hard, truly, would it have been to get a vote going against me? I think he misjudges people's actual opinions of me (that of a misguided Villager rather than a superbly cunning 'Wolf), and there may have been a bit of a personal vendetta in there against me, but who can blame him if there was? I don't pretend to know Selrahc's mind at all, but I think trying Gaspar to him, based upon all the evidence I at the very least have in favor of Gaspar as a Villager, is pulling at straws.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I'm sure I'll have far more before this Day is out.

[scooter]

One thing we all need to realize is that confirming the seer isn't a priority anymore. The seer is dead. If it's sunrise, he'll die tonight. If it's someone who's keeping quiet and sunrise is lying or he is the fool, they'll die tonight. Either way, the wolves WILL kill the seer tonight, and no one can do a thing about it. I suggest we let the sunrise/uberfish feud settle itself tomorrow. If sunrise dies tonight, we'll lynch uberfish tomorrow and we'll be 100% sure we've got the right guy. If someone else dies tonight, then we either lynch sunrise (faker WW) or we write him off as the fool, in which case he's a regular villager, and uberfish must be re-evaluated.

Either way, I suggest we leave both of them alone for today, and look at other people. Tomorrow we can decide the fate of sunrise/uberfish, but today we really don't know, so why not leave it for tomorrow when we WILL know for sure? Just seems the logical decision right?

I'm not confident enough to cast a vote yet. Honestly I'd like to see how people react to my suggestion. Currently though, my suspicion list looks something like this, although this is very rough and I could very well vote for someone totally different when this day is all said and done

1. Gaspar - It's moderately eerie to me how quick everyone was to dismiss him as a candidate after he collected 6-7 votes just two days ago. I still can't shake the fact that he swapped from Sandover to the baner on day 1 either, but that event is pretty minor to me. It's mostly the quick dismissal of what was once a major suspect that seems out of whack

2. Ug the Barbarian - Speaking from a stricly meta standpoint, if he is a werewolf, he's played a fantastic game. He's done very little to attract attention, he's spoken up for the majority in most disputes, and he's provided very little original material for anyone to judge him on. In contrast, if he's a villager, he hasn't really provided much by the way of original material - meaning I can't think of a time where he's made a case for a suspect. If I'm wrong on this, I'll happily take this back, but I honestly can't think of a single time.

3. Sareln - If he is a werewolf, voting for himself was fricken brilliant. I mean what difference did it make? It was going to be Sandover or Sareln, so why not vote for yourself? If you survive, you have credibility for life. If you die, who cares, a wolf was going to die anyways? He has since stayed under the radar mostly (though he's occasionally contributed), which fits quite nicely. Honestly, in another game if I was in his shoes and I was a werewolf, I'd pull the same stunt, because if it worked, the WW's have a huge chance of winning. Actually I'm talking myself into him, and I may move him up to #2. Nah, I'll leave it for now.

Alright, that's my off-the-cuff thoughts. If I was inaccurate in anything on those 3 people, let me know, as this was a meta post rather than a voting history post. I think the meta is an easier metric for me to read, because votes can be manipulated by wolves, because they have the advantage of knowing who every candidate is. This is why I'm less apt to believe in voting record analysis for the first 3 days, although it's bigger in the late game when lynches are a bigger deal.

[Gaspar]

I'm only addressing two points here, the rest is gibberish. I particularly enjoy the part about what time I voted for Selrahc. I apologize for having a job, I can't always vote from work, you will note that I voted Selrahc within 5 minutes of logging on that day. Surely, since you're obsessed with me, you have screengrabs of my logins:

I asked him privately, and later publicly what answers he'd gotten from his Rowain and Sandover votes. I'd still love to know what answers he gathered, and if he truly is a non-unique villager like me I would see no reason not to share it, at least privately. I would keep his response to myself but publicly share what I thought of the response, if that makes sense.

I didn't respond to your PM because I thought it suspicious. At that point in the game, I didn't yet trust anyone, and I certainly wasn't giving anyone any information I didn't need to. You cannot argue that I have not consistently played the game in such a fashion. I still don't have any reason to believe you're not a wolf, your game has been horribly nondescript other than the torch you've been carrying for me. I'm not saying I think you're a wolf, I'm saying I have no read on you whatsoever.

Clearly, Selrahc didn't want to vote for Gaspar even though I wanted to help him get a swing going. If Selrahc had taken that offer, don't you think he could have lived and helped get the villager Gaspar lynched? More than anything else, I think the fact that Selrahc in his devil role refused to throw Gaspar under the bus proves that Gaspar is not the innocent villager he claims to be.

Firstly, I can't speak for Selrahc's thoughts, but I'd suppose he didn't bother trying to get anything going because he had something like 12 lynch votes on him. You might have been among the mistaken. (can we focus on this for a second? Everyone wants to make a federal case out my Day 1 flip-flop, but Selrahc was the devil. Isn't anyone who didn't see the obvious nature of that lynch suspicious for either being implicit or stupid? Those are really the only two choices, aren't they? Which are you? Implicit or Stupid? You don't seem dumb, but I don't have your SAT scores or anything.)

Anyway, yes, the mistaken group who didn't buy the lynch Selrahc play. See you were mistaken. Hahahaha, you made a mistake. You screwed up!!!! HAHAHAHA! (This is what been done to me about my votes, do you enjoy it? Perhaps Serdoa can come up with another chart for us.) So yeah, if I had 12 lynch votes on me, I probably wouldn't try to get any trains going against me either. For that matter, had he voted for me, that would have pretty much completely removed me from suspicion. The Gaspar strawman is about the only tool the Wolves have at this point. 2 of 3 lynches have been the bad guys. There was no alternate candidate day 3. And Day 1, the only viable alternate lynch candidate was pretty much a martyr. Day 4 is shaping up like Day 3. So I'm pretty much all you've got.

Honestly, we're winning this game more than anything because the wolves are doing a piss-poor job during the day. 4 Days, and I'm the only innocent villager you've been able to cast any consistent suspicion on. Play better, wolves, it would make the game more fun for the rest of us.