[SPOILERS] Woden and ljubljana like boats

[ljubljana]

Turn 137 - Phoenicia



TCS screenie. The city should be down to 1 health next turn I thiiiink, so I'd say to get your attackers ready and pillage the lighthouse. Otherwise, if you could leave the west side of the city open, that would be great - I can then sail around and hit the city with 7 or 8 frigates next turn while (reminder to future me) leaving a tile open for you to attack. I might lose a frigate on the counterattack next turn if the city fire, caravel, and Kaiser's frigate all hit the same target, but Kaiser will lose his frigate too, not a bad trade. I have 3 new ones in the north ready to replace any losses here anyways.

I hope CMF doesn't block our cities, that would be a pain. In case your berserks don't get here in time, I am sending down a, um, horsie to help out. It can at least disembark and attack a city center in one turn if needed.



CMF and roland are engaged in a weird half-battle off our coast, with a bunch of unupgraded units hanging around on both sides. That's...weird.



Just to let you know, some ship stumbled into my scouting GA last turn, who was at the pinned location. Could be a stray galley, could be Kaiser's whole navy. We should have enough force up here to handle the latter, but just letting you know in case caution is warranted.



Upgraded 3 frigates, as I mentioned earlier, and have two of my better cities frantically working on quads to use up the niter as it comes in. I'm aiming for 20 frigates minus the 3-4 I expect to lose taking the southern cities before splitting the fleet - right now I have 11. At one frigate every 1.66 turns, it could be a while before I close that gap...

We also have a decision domestically, as Hieratic is about to finish what might be its last caravel for a while. Do you think it's worth building a shipyard next for the Steam Power boost? I'm not sure it is, since you are almost certain to get there first and my getting the boost too would therefore not actually help us at all in terms of beakers. A shipyard otherwise seems like a pretty terrible build to me, making only 6 hammers for the city and therefore taking nearly 50 turns to pay back, plus a 10-turn construction time - does anyone really think the game will still be competitive in 60 turns? Or am I thinking about this wrong and mediocre shipyards like this are actually good for some reason? The non-shipyard options are a campus (discounted but just +2) and just another caravel while I wait on traders to become available as the actual best build.

[Woden]

Shipyards have a couple of other benefits than the straight production boost. They add 1 production to unimproved water tile, so if you are maxed out on your other tiles, it does help. Probably not this early in the game but can help later when your cities are larger. The biggest is probably the +25% experience for ships built in that city. Your ships earn promotions faster. As building them next, IDK. You are right that I will probably need the boost, since I will probably reach the tech sooner. I think you were right in continuing to build ships. We are going to need a large fleet in case CMF wants to start trouble with us if he feels sub/roland are knocked out of contention. I think this game is coming down to us and CMF/marco. The good thing there is marco is pretty hurt with sub attacking him and will take a while to rebuild, while we are still both whole. CMF may have the tech edge right now but if I can get a bunch of free science from pillages and if I am careful to get boost, I should be able to take the lead over this war with TAD/Kaiser. Back to ships, I need to drop ship production to focus on getting those boost and will need you to bulk up our navy, which it looks like you are planning. So, maybe another caravel at Hieratic is warranted. I think you need to still work on infrastructure too but also continue building ships.

I would continue building ships but can't afford to keep running the card right now. I also need to think about boosts. I need policy slots for the Oligarchy card and Raid plus Natural Philosophy and Conscription, so my "extra slots" are limited to 1 slot (can't count the diplo cards). I could keep Press Gangs in but I am going to switch to Veterancy to speed the barrack, a few Harbors, a lighthouse, and then shipyards. I just need to chase boost more than build ships at the moment.

For techs, I think you need to switch off Education when it reaches 1-turn to completion and don't finish anything else until after the era change, everything should be at a 20% discount. Once Printing is done next turn, I am going to pillage into a bunch of techs and not finish them until the era change to maximize the discount. This will be another way we can "catch-up" to CMF.

Edit: Also, we can't have your horse take a city if you are going into a dark age, you won't be able to hold the city. I guess we could have you take it and then let it revolt and I take it but then we run the risk of either TAD retaking the city or CMF capturing it. Once the walls fall, we can afford to let it stay in TAD's hands until my berserker gets there or I can divert one from the south.

[ljubljana]

Yeah, I guess the question about more caravels is this - I am not sure how helpful they will be against either TAD/Kaiser or CMF/marco. Against TAD, we don't have much navy left to fight, and I think we have more than enough caravels to defeat it already. Against CMF, I won't be able to simply mass-upgrade caravels to ironclads because of the coal requirement, and since I already have more caravels than I will have coal, extra caravels would probably just get murdered by CMF's ironclads. I guess they could sneak around and hit frigates, though, or they could just be another layer of meat shield for my own frigates, both of which are reasonably compelling uses.

I am wondering if I should just kind of...give up on science for the rest of the game (at least until it's clear that CMF wants to get into a build-off) and pump ships until the game ends, pausing only for essential infrastructure with quick payoff times (lighthouses and traders) and not for silly long-term builds like campuses and shipyards. We only really need one player to have access to ironclads, since the number we can field is limited by coal and I can just gift you my coal every turn so you can have more rather than building any myself. The one thing that would really hurt is missing factories, but if you find out where Industrialization is quickly, I suppose I can crawl my way there at my pathetic Renaissance science rate over the course of 60 turns or whatever without waiting on campuses.

edit: Question about Wars of Religion - I have 12 cities right now, and 6 of them follow Catholicism. Do I need another conversion before I can use it, or is this good enough?

edit2: Actually, hmm. We don't really need more caravels vs. TAD, and against CMF we still have a 20-turn buffer before we have to worry about that. Maybe this actually is not too bad a time to start working on cheapish projects like the discounted campus in Hieratic and a few libraries, as long as I don't slow down on frigates... Do I think a campus and two libraries would be worth the opportunity cost in caravels (probably 3 caravels) in a war with CMF at a time when caravels will be on the edge of obsolescence? I don't know, honestly it's been ages since I've played the game out this late, even in SP...

[Woden]

You are going to want an aqueduct in Cuneiform after the IZ because you are about to get +14 food and +14 production, 6 of each next turn. I would consider sending Pingala back there. Let that city grow then build a campus when available. You are going also want some infrastructure to improve your production. It is one way to make Work Ethic less of a benefit. I think if you build the discounted districts you can (Campuses and IZ), you should be looking better. I would also build shipyards in your most productive cities to get the experience benefit. For your less productive cities, once they get their trade route (Cothon and Lighthouse), they can focus on ships or if you have a good campus. You don't need to be competitive with the leader in science but you don't want to fall behind either. Also, if you shoot for a Heroic Age next go around, you can make use of the dedication that provides production to campuses. The key is to balance long term goals with short term needs. I don't think this game will go as long as PBEM18 and should be decided once ironclads come online and we fight CMF. Whoever kills the others navy first, wins. And even though we won't have enough coal for a bunch of ironclads, neither will he and caravels still take out frigates. We will need them to control the ocean becuase whoever controls the ocean, wins!

As for religion, last I checked you were following my religion. You have 7 cities following Protestantism, not 6 (I think you forgot Geneva). I did buy a missionary a few turns ago and am sending him to convert Linear B, Runic, and put a charge into Cuneiform. With the additional trade routes I am gong to send in a few turns, Cuneiform should convert soon.

[ljubljana]

OH I see what my problem is, Hieratic's religion is covered by the IZ pin in that last screenie. Okay, sounds good then re: Wars of Religion.

Good point re: Cuneiform. It has some headroom on housing now (well, one headroom - it will be capped at size 11) but will need an aqueduct soon. Cuneiform is also the rare city where there is a good argument for a shipyard IMO, it's worth 8 hammers upfront and the city is also capped on good tiles (obviously) and has been working unimproved coast for a while. I think I should keep Magnus at the capital, though, since he is worth 2 food in all of my cities with a Cuneiform TR, which there are about to be a lot of. What I will do, though, is fix the housing problem at Demotic with an aqueduct after the first few traders so I can get more use out of Pingala.

I think my plan is then to build as much cheap and/or high value infra as I can now (discounted campus at Hieratic, libraries for cheap scientist slots, shipyard at Cuneiform and maybe Geneva, lighthouses and traders everywhere) for the next 10 or so turns while maintaining frigate production, and then start pumping caravels again for the CMF war after that. Does that sound good to you?

edit: As for which cities will get the discounted IZs, I think the answer is Cuneiform and then whichever spot in the east will end up being the factory location. There's some question about which spot that should be, with Nsibidi having the strongest final IZ adjacency in the region (+8) but Abjad getting Mitla in range of its +4 IZ. Nsibidi comes out ahead in terms of total hammers, but probably not for some time as we will have to get all the aqueducts and dams up first. That means Linear B's IZ will be full-price and probably not started for some time, so it and Linear A can stick to quads for a while so I don't fall behind on frigates. Also, if I think this game is going to go until factories (which I suppose I do), I should get started on the workshops sooner rather than later. That means Cuneiform, where a workshop is at least worth 5 hammers by opening up an engineer slot. I will also want to find room for 2 more Serfdom builders somewhere once Mercantilism comes online...

edit2: Do you think I should consider making more settlers soon? I don't think I have time for that now, but if the game goes long it could be important, and there are a few solid spots I still have left to settle, so I'm open to arguments if you think I should. I certainly don't want to end up like PBEM18 suboptimal with large stretches of good land going unused because I'm off in builder land.

[Woden]

Your plan sounds solid. As for settlers, I would hold off right now. If we conquer all of England and Japan, we can divide it up and we will have plenty of cities. I don't even think I will buy any once I get Monumentality unless I one for loyalty. We will start running into happiness issues if we get too big and will need to build entertainment plazas. I think improve what we have and then revisit the settler issue in about 20-30 turns. Of coarse, if you find a must have location (more coal or niter), then it might be worth diverting some production into a settler.

[Woden]

What do you think about sending marco a DoF to extend our peace to 30 turns? Give us some time to conquer TAD/Kaiser and collect coal.

[ljubljana]

Sounds like a great idea. I doubt he will accept, but all the better for us if he does. Might be worth sending one to roland/sub too juuuust in case, since our worst-case scenario involves them peaceing out and attacking us with CMF in 20 turns.

[Woden]

Turn 137-Vikings
Diplomatic Service is in and time for a policy swap...
   

I stop building ships and switch to harbors and barracks with Veterancy. No more upgrade as Raid is much more beneficial. Final, slot Wasselbanken, gaining 2 food, 2 production each on my trade routes to Cuneiform and getting Cuneiform 6 food, 6 production. 

Now that Raid is slotted, let's go raiding! I pillage a pasture and plantation in the north, 2 mines and a lighthouse in the south. Each mine was 94 science and 318 gold and each pasture/plantation was 94 culture and 159 faith. The lighthouse was 318 gold. Overall, I got 954 gold and 364 faith, finished printing, shave 4 turns off of Reformed Church, and 2 turns off of Siege Tactics. Here is where my ships ended up...
   

If you take out The Compassionate Society's health and kill the archer while keeping the tile marked "Here" open so I can pillage the plantation, I will take the city next turn. I can double pillage the harbor and plantation and still have movement to take the city. Might be a big lift, so if not, we can take it the following turn.  I do notice that Kaiser retreated his Frigate. Not sure where it went but my best guess is back west. 

Both The Compassionate Society and Economic Drive should be hard for CMF to block and by the time we can take Official Visit, I should have the Grand Master's Chapel built and can buy a Berserker at Economy Drive to take the city.

Back home...
   

I have 2 traders finishing next turn. One will go to Freyr and one to Loki to send routes to Cuneiform. I will still have 1 open route and another one in 3 turns when the lighthouse finishes at Balder. I will wait until my Golden Age to faith buy them.

Next turn, I should be able to pillage 1 lighthouse, 2 harbors, a mine, a plantation down by Harden's Grove, and maybe the plantation at The Compassionate Society before taking the city. That should be another 1,200+ gold plus more faith and speeding up research.

And I did send both marco and roland offers of friendship.

[Woden]

Thinking longer term, I think it best if I keep TAD's east coast and send trade routes to Cuneiform. I think we can get that city large and productive. I also have been thinking that it will probably be helpful if I but a few berserkers once I get the Chapel going and head over to Kaiser's cities. His defensive strength is not that high and I think a couple of berserkers could take out the walls and then capture a city the following turn.

And, did you post then delete it. I got a notification but see no post.