SPOILER - Dazedroyalty's Thread

[meatbalz]

yes, but... a 2-party settling agreement is difficult enough. 3-man even tougher. as for 4-man, i doubt you'd have that in place before the first settlers are due out.

[pure speculation]

also bear in mind, if i'm scooter there's no way i want a 3-way settling agreement of the type suggested (everyone settles N of the capital), since that means one of my 2 neighbours can expand in 2 directions and then i have a neighbour 2x my size right next door.

if he has any sense he will negotiate an agreement with only one of the 2 neighbours and at this early stage since the original suggestion is to settle N, it looks like you're the odd one out of the 3.

i'd rule out a 4-way settling agreement since not only is it logistically tougher to put together but with you being one of the middle guys, you don't stand to gain anything while one of the 2 guys on the edges will benefit.

[/pure speculation]

[dazedroyalty]

Given that I haven't seen a warrior or any other units coming down from the south, I think it's safe to say my northern neigbor (assuming that is a correct map assumption) has not ventured south yet. In which case, it is unlikely that his first city will go south. Therefore, if my first city goes south, there's a good chance I could still beat out the northern spot too.

[dazedroyalty]

Scooter sent me a message:

Dazed,

Thanks! And yes I'll move my warrior away when the turn gets around to me again.

I get the feeling you're open to a discussion regarding cities but you aren't nuts about the idea I proposed. I guess I'm trying to look at it from your perspective, and if I was you I'd be trying to snag a coastal spot both north AND south of your capital. Here's the dilemma I'm facing right now - I *really* would like one of these 2-fish coastal spots, but there's likely no way I can get both north and south of my capital. Not only that, it's even more unlikely that I can get the spot to my south... SleepingMoogle has scouted that land and I haven't, so it would be awfully hard to get that spot.

Soooo... that means I'd really like that coastal spot between us. So here's the scenarios we could be facing:

1. We race there. One of us gets it, and sucks to be the other person.
2. I could give you claim on the spot if you had a good offer to make
3. You could give me that spot if I had a good offer to make

So I'm going to attempt to talk you into door #3 . I'd like to offer you two things in return for that coastal spot:

1. Favorable settling rights to another spot NOT on the coast. I'm not looking at the game currently, but basically I'd be willing to trade that spot for land concessions further west... If you see a spot that you like inland that you think may be borderline, I'd be open to a trade. You said there's another coast-line 7-8 tiles to the west, so I'd be open to giving you an additional port on that side of the island if that's why you'd like.

2. I'll send a Buddhist missionary for free.

Although it's not like I'm giving this up, I'd be willing to bet you can snag the same coastal spot to your north anyways. Alright so that was my sales pitch...your thoughts?

scooter

I don't have time to respond tonight, so it'll wait till tomorrow for analysis and response. The only immediate thought is that my diplomacy is apparently extremely transparent...

Serdoa is out of town till Thursday night so there is no rush for me to do anything since I won't play my turn till at least Thursday night probably Friday morning.

[meatbalz]

Given that I haven't seen a warrior or any other units coming down from the south, I think it's safe to say my northern neigbor (assuming that is a correct map assumption) has not ventured south yet. In which case, it is unlikely that his first city will go south. Therefore, if my first city goes south, there's a good chance I could still beat out the northern spot too.

i like your confidence i'll try playing devil's advocate: why are you confident of winning a settling race against a northern neighbor (or thinking there's a good chance you can) since you mentioned most other civs are EXP?

wouldn't it be better to negotiate hard for the prime southern spot and then send the first settler north, knowing you'll break even in the south vs inca in any cultural border dispute?

[dazedroyalty]

i like your confidence i'll try playing devil's advocate: why are you confident of winning a settling race against a northern neighbor (or thinking there's a good chance you can) since you mentioned most other civs are EXP?

wouldn't it be better to negotiate hard for the prime southern spot and then send the first settler north, knowing you'll break even in the south vs inca in any cultural border dispute?

Meatbalz, I don't really have a good reason to think I will get the north except that I do not think my northern neighbor has scouted that way yet. That said, I'm also being genuine when I told Scooter that we really need to know more about the map before making a decision. There is no guarantee that he'll be directly north of me.

In terms of racing, because I'm not EXP, I'll almost surely lose against anyone else who makes a determined effort to get there first. Now, if scooter were to build a camp on his ivory before chopping, I might be able to beat him there. But he's 1-2 worker turns ahead of me (I still haven't figured out why there was a discrepancy on the worker turns before).

Let me show you what happened on this turn:

My farm completed, allowing me to work the corn and grow in one turn:



I think moving to work the Ivory was right because it got my first warriors in play faster but I am still growing on the same turn. (2 turns on the ivory cost me 2 food but working the farm provides 6 so I still grow this turn. Now it will slow down when I grow to size three but I won't make it to size 3 before building the settler anyways.)

I moved my warrior besides the lion:



Despite the negative aspects of being last (losing out on rushing to a settle being on of them since all my opponents go first even on the "same" turn), one benefit is I get to see the immediate effect of barbarian battles and culture growth, etc. My warrior survived the fight but is down to 0.8 health. I've never played on Quick speed but I assume that healing is NOT scaled with game speed, which means it will take 6 turns to heal. That's really quite a long time at Quick speed.

Here's the demographics (before the turn rolled):



I still don't understand why I now have better approval rating and life expectancy. I think I heard something that life expectancy has something to do the efficiency of using your health resources. So to be healthy is to not be over or under or something like that.

I imagine that when I grow to size two, my approval will drop.

I'm second in GNP before growth. If SleepingMoogle has researched Fishing and is working the fish I think that would give him 23 GNP.

Wait, no. Scooter has founded Buddhism which gives him +5 culture, but since he went for an early religion, I doubt he has fishing yet. But he also has a MFG of 4, which means he's working the Ivory, but the Ivory doesn't give gold, which I would think would leave him at 22 GNP. So, either he's got an ivory on a river or I don't understand this very well. Anyone know?

The reason this matters, obviously, would be if I can keep track of when his settler is built. I think that in two turns when I can see his demographics that will tell me how much it costs to sabotage his production which in turn will allow me to tell when he finishes the settler.

[dazedroyalty]

No I think 23 is Scooter. Because I have 2 culture he doesn't have and he has 5 I don't, which means he's 3 ahead. I have 21. Wait, that would put him at 24... argh... Sullla needs to join my team!

Another thing I noted is that Serdoa has only 40 points after I end turn. So either he's down in research since I know he has grown to size 2. My guess is he went Mining straight to BW. We'll see if that shoots up in the next few turns when he completes BW.

[dazedroyalty]

Diplomacy for the day:

Followed up with SleepingMoogle

SleepingMoogle,

I have not heard back from you and realized that perhaps that is because immediately after I saw your warrior on the hill, a forest grew when I ended turn, thereby cutting off line of sight and perhaps leading you to assume that it was an accidental greeting. We are now directly next to each other--Whiskeyjack had the honor of witnessing the first victory of my empire as the lion decided to attack!

Let me reiterate my greeting and well wishes to you and the people of Malazan. Scooter has been in communication with me trying to hammer out some settling rights. Have you been in conversation with him as well?

I'm starting to think that we are on a long N-S island with each civ directly above/below another, probably with world wrap so no one is on top or bottom.

Talk to you soon,
Dazed

And a response to Scooter's last message:

Scooter,

Thanks for moving your quechua away next turn. Sorry for not getting back to you last night. I was at a youth group event I help lead all night and today was quite busy at work.

Regarding settling agreements, there area couple of thoughts I wanted to share. First, this is my first attempt to engage in settlement discussions in CIV so I am intentionally trying to take time and think about things thoroughly before agreeing to any proposal. Please don't take it as a negative sign if I do not immediately agree or if there is a delay in response.

Second, I do have a genuine desire to understand the map a bit more fully before finalizing an agreement. I have been operating under an assumption (one that it seems you've also had). That is, that I have a neighbor to my north and that we are all in some kind of line probably with a world wrap so that there is no top or bottom player. That said, we do not know this for sure so it does seem prudent explore a little more.

I fully understand your concern regarding your southern site. However, I am in the same situation as I have not scouted north of my capitol. If I concede the my southern site to you and then my northern neighbor also goes south, I will be left without either spot myself. Your proposal to offer a site on the west coast would be a lot stronger if I knew more about what is there. At the moment, I have visibility on 5 coastal tiles but none with resources.

I'm not trying to shut these negotiations down at all, but would like to ask how long you think we can wait for more map info to be revealed.

Also, I assume that you have been speaking to SleepingMoogle as well in order to keep your options open. I know I would in your situation. How have those discussions gone? I am still waiting to hear back from him after my initial greeting.

That's it for now!

Dazed

[dazedroyalty]

From Scooter:

Dazed,

No problem - I understand things can get busy...

Okay back to the game. I hope the way I worded my last email didn't make you think that I felt like you were totally shooting me down (if you follow that). I guess it went more like this. I wrote that first proposal in sort of a "if things went the way I want" mode. I didn't really put myself in your shoes, I just threw out there an idea that sounds great (to me) in theory but is bad in practice, because it's giving up something for nothing from your perspective. So my follow-up message was trying to make it so that it was a case of you giving up something for something if that makes sense.

Here's the catch. We're not THAT far from settler time. I mean it won't be in the next couple days obviously, but you know what I mean, it's not turn 3 anymore . Sure we can wait for more map info, but...not very long. At some point one (or both) of us will think to ourselves "forget it, I AM getting that spot." So while I don't want to rush you into a decision you are not prepared to make, I'd also like to nudge you just a bit only because time ticks quickly on quick speed . Okay I'll shoot straight - what is your interest level on my proposition? 1 being a "no way I'll accept" and 10 a "I accept".

I think you could grab the northern spot if you made a determined beeline for it (the warrior you just finished building is not that far from the area). I'd be open to an additional add-on to the deal to "sweeten" it a bit... If your northern neighbor steals it, I'd help you get it back. I'd do my best to gift you, say, an axeman or chariot to help you take it. That is, if we even HAVE copper/horses, which is NOT a guarantee with the wacky map Krill made for us!

Alright, sorry for the book I've written but I'll wrap it up now. As for SleepingMoogle, he's out of town this week so he's been quiet on the diplo front. I was hoping to send him a message in an attempt to "sell" the spot south of my capital in the same way that I'm offering to buy the one to my north if that makes sense. He's scouted it and I'm sure he wants it, so I'll see how that goes.

scooter

I had forgotten that SleepingMoogle was out of town. I can't remember if he has a sub playing for him or not. Either way, I feel silly for sending a second greeting message. OH well.

[dazedroyalty]

From SleepingMoogle:

Greetings Dazedroyalty,

First of all, let me apologize for the delay of this response. Having just returned from holiday, in which internet access has been less than a given, my last handful of turns have been played by Krill who unfortunately had no access to this email address to be aware of or respond to your message. The lack of acknowledgement was not caused by ill intent, but I'm hopeful it wasn't taken in this spirit regardless. In any case, now that I have returned from my retreat to take over the reins of the Malazan Empire once again, please let me extend the warm greetings of the Malazan people to the Holy Roman Empire. In addition, please convey our congratulations to your Warriors for besting the beasts of the wild that prowl the wilderness!

Your proposed theory on the shape of the landmass we share seems logical given Malazan explorations so far. Our capital of Unta can be found directly south of scooter's city of Cheddar, and we have assumed until now that the Holy Roman capital can be found a more or less equal distance to its north. There are also hints that the starts may have been (mostly) mirrored, although it is too early to say this for certain. So far we have not seen any sign of a possible southern neighbour, but should we encounter one, do you wish for us to make them aware of you, and pass on the general location of your lands? We would be grateful if you could return this favor for us should you encounter other Civilizations as well.

For now our scout Whiskeyjack will continue his explorations towards the north. It is my understanding that you have negotiated an agreement with scooter that mutual scouting efforts will not venture too close to each other's borders. I would be interested in making a similar agreement with you if your scouts intend to move further south past scooter's lands.

Sincerely,
-Emperor SleepingMoogle I

[dazedroyalty]

This turn I moved my warrior onto a forested hill in the south to heal. He'll be there awhile...

I misclicked and moved my worker onto the forest instead of onto the camp so that will slow down my development another turn. This is not my day!

However, the glory of Cair Paravel expanded: