Burn Baby Burn, Kandros Inferno: Team Sheaim Spoiler Thread!

[Bobchillingworth]

Ouch. I still think that even just the barb warriors alone are too much. Imagine if you weren't aggressive- you'd be facing constant stacks of 4 combat I warriors with little recourse until you managed to crawl to BW. You could probably hold out if you just pumped warriors, sure, but making progress would be torturous. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of your opponents collapsed soon as well. I don't want to be too vitriolic against the mapmakers here, but seriously guys. This gives every indication of being the most misguided effort for any map ever used in an RB MP game, with the possible exception of BTS PBEM 3. There's a reason why Barbarian World only generates one barbarian city per player.


I'll happily dedilurk again if/when you do get eliminated, should you decide to start up a new game. Considering how many dedicated lurkers FFH PBEM V picked up once the player roster filled, I suspect there's still enough forum interest for another game.

[Mist]

Ouch. I still think that even just the barb warriors alone are too much. Imagine if you weren't aggressive- you'd be facing constant stacks of 4 combat I warriors with little recourse until you managed to crawl to BW. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of your opponents collapsed soon as well. I don't want to be too vitriolic against the mapmakers here, but seriously guys. This gives every indication of being the most misguided effort for any map ever used in an RB MP game, with the possible exception of BTS PBEM 3.

Why exactly? Just because Selrahc hat some seriously bad luck in form of that godforsaken wraith ( which was one of these bad gave developments, like mistforms from a lair )?

This is perfectly playable setup, I actually have few SP games on it rolling along slowly and happily. But it requires a bit of thought, and respect for the barbs.

And please do not blame mapmaker for gambles that didn't pay off :neenernee

[Bobchillingworth]

I've mentioned my reasons before in this thread, but here they are collected:



1. The mapmakers seemingly misunderstood the entire point of no settlers. The reason why no settlers is compelling is that it leads to wide-open spaces of unsettled land to explore, with barbarian cities continuously appearing to provide new settlements for players and assets to fight over. Small pre-made empires ringing what I assume is a block of tundra & plains with Acheron in the center are far beyond the mandate the mapmakers were given, which I believe was obvious from the setup thread.

2. The map set-up heavily favors the Overlords. All of the barbarian cities uncovered so far are on the coast. While this map isn't as bad a one that consists of actual islands, it's close. Assuming every player has a similar number of barbarian cities near them, over half of every player's empire is extremely vulnerable to tsunami and water-walking units. No competitive map should make one religion clearly disproportionally better than the rest- this one does.

3. The map is biased against the Clan. The use of non-standard barbarian units as city guards (such as strength 8 elephants) means that the Clan player will have extra difficulty taking his towns. The Clan worldspell is rendered all but useless due to barbarian cities having few starting defenders (who have the held promotion to boot), meaning that deploying the worldspell provides little tactical benefit and actually could assist opponents in capturing barbarian cities much more easily. Ichabod complained about this in the tech thread.

4. The enormous amount of barbarian cities quite literally surrounding the players means that they will be regularly attacked by loose waves of 20 combat I warriors (assuming 5 barb towns per player peninsula), with the player limited to two starting cities of their own to build defending troops. Note that Selrahc didn't lose his capital due to the Wraith attacking it- it fell to a barb kill team. And Selrahc has the aggressive trait and took one barb city out early. The Illians, Svarts, and Grigori could well have an even worse time of it. Players shouldn't have to stockpile their early towns with ludicrous numbers of warriors to prevent an early elimination at the hands of the barbs, which will slow down an already ponderous early game. Again, note that this issue has nothing to do directly with the wraith- and people have noted flaws in this map well before Selrahc got jumped (I'm not sure what particular play the "gamble" you mentioned refers to).



Mist, it's great that you're having fun romping over this map in single-player with full map knowledge, but I don't think what the players received at all resembles what they asked for. The point of a mapmaker is to check for serious flaws in a map's balance, implement the player's wishes, and perhaps add a few twists- but not spoonfeed them custom empires on maps best played as "slow, careful" SP scenarios.


And these criticisms are just my own. Selrahc and the other players haven't quit in disgust, so presumably no one regards the map as utterly unplayable. But given what should have been a simple map generation requiring a week at most to setup ended up taking almost a month to complete and disregarded the (seemingly to me) clear intent of the game, I have to question the design process.

[Selrahc]

I'd generally agree with a lot of Bob's criticisms about undue prominence for overlords, screwing the clan and kind of missing the point of no settlers games. I can accept it though. I asked for something odd. I really should have been able to deal with these barbs though. If I'd not taken Domir, hunkered down building warriors instead, I would be fine right now. By going for that early city capture, I slightly overstretched my forces. Then the wraith came, and that caused my overstretched forces to be a very very bad thing.

My descent continues... relatively unabated although with some fluctuation.

I've retaken the capital, which is now being defended by a single crippled warrior. I've lost and then retaken Resident Evil, which is now being defended by a single crippled(although high level) warrior with 4 barb warriors and a wraith on its doorstep.

28 Days Later, which used to be Domir, is the only city that is relatively safe at the moment. It only has 3 warriors guarding it, so I'll need to get some more warriors in soonish.

I'm thinking though that the final loss of Night of the Living Dead and Resident Evil is coming soon. A stiff breeze could knock either of the cities over now, and I'm out of forces to attempt to retake or relieve them, and the time to build up a force to fortify them. The current situation actually has somewhat of a zombie movie feel... numberless hordes closing in on a band of ragtag scattered survivors. I'd wanted to be on the other side of that equation.

[Mist]

I'd generally agree with a lot of Bob's criticisms about undue prominence for overlords, screwing the clan and kind of missing the point of no settlers games. I can accept it though. I asked for something odd.

The thing is - you never actually spelled out what do you expect from the map apart from the vague "No settlers", "Barb World", "Raging Barbs" ( or if you did, it got lost somewhere obscure and both Square Leg and I missed it ). There is a myriad of ways this setup can be realised in with "plenty of empty land to explore" one of many possibilities.

As to the specific criticism

Small pre-made empires ringing what I assume is a block of tundra & plains with Acheron in the center are far beyond the mandate the mapmakers were given, which I believe was obvious from the setup thread.

Please point/link/quote specific posts stating that. Because, since first criticisms of the map were voiced, I've been through that thread a number of times already, and can find no specific restrictions, suggestions or requests directed at mapmaker. The mandate, if such thing can be even found in the thread, was neither obvious nor clear. And I don't think I'm alone at thinking this. At no point during the map evaluation in the lurker thread did any lurker voice an opinion this is not the type of the map you requested

2. The map set-up heavily favors the Overlords. All of the barbarian cities uncovered so far are on the coast. While this map isn't as bad a one that consists of actual islands, it's close.

Yes, the map does favor OO. Which is an ugly trade-of for a number of good things it encourages. Overlords are a pain in the butt in any sort of mapmaking and with hindsight I'd advocate a different solution to the problem.

3. The map is biased against the Clan.
(...) the Clan player will have extra difficulty taking his towns.
(...) The Clan worldspell is rendered all but useless
(...) deploying the worldspell provides little tactical benefit
(...) and actually could assist opponents in capturing barbarian cities much more easily.

I disagree. Not really. Hell no. No. Non-standard defenders ( phant, azer, frostlings ) are not possible to convert by For the Horde.
Food for thought - what would happen if he fired the worldspell this turn and declared on you?

4. The enormous amount of barbarian cities quite literally surrounding the players means that they will be regularly attacked by loose waves of 20 combat I warriors (assuming 5 barb towns per player peninsula), with the player limited to two starting cities of their own to build defending troops.

To answer with a quote

I really should have been able to deal with these barbs though. If I'd not taken Domir, hunkered down building warriors instead, I would be fine right now. By going for that early city capture, I slightly overstretched my forces. Then the wraith came, and that caused my overstretched forces to be a very very bad thing.

Exactly my sentiment. Four fortified warriors behind a palisade will shrug off anything that barbs can throw their way. Especially if said warriors are C1 and take shock as first promotion after winning two fights. City placed on a hill is even safer.

Mist, it's great that you're having fun romping over this map in single-player with full map knowledge

And this is really uncalled for. There is a world of difference between having the map knowledge and actually using it when playing test games on a given map. I'm thrilled you consider me incompetent enough to play a proper shadow game.

And on this high note I'm out. There's no point in bashing the topic further.

[Selrahc]

For those who are curious...

2 kill teams of 4 barbs will converge on the capital and attack in 3 turns. I will have 3 defenders. I don't think the city is likely to survive, although if it does it should be easy to prop it back up again until the wraith moseys over. Warriors take just 2 turns to complete.


In 28 Days Later, the situation is equally dire. The wraith is picking off defenders and with no hammer tiles to work they each take a dozen turns to replace. I think there really is very little hope for this city.

The current kill count of the wraith is 6 warriors. He has killed as many troops single handedly as the entire rest of the barb forces put together, which I suppose is fitting.

If the capital survives this latest attack.. I can probably hold out for another 30-40 turns grinding out warriors in between wraith attacks and kill teams. If it doesn't... I'll be out in 10 or less, depending on how lucky the wraith gets on his attacks. He won a flawless victory last time, so I'm hoping I at least cause enough damage to make him heal up with the next defence.

All in all, it looks incredibly dire.

[Serdoa]

simply because you still do your best and haven't given up

[fire&ice]

because the stiff breeze was the wraith and you still have not collapsed although you are on your way.

[Selrahc]

simply because you still do your best and haven't given up

Honestly, if this was a single player game I would have given up by now. I really am doomed.

But it's multiplayer, and the things I do here will still affect the other people playing the game. If I give up now, then the wraith will be free'd up 10-40 turns earlier than it would otherwise be. It could be away and terrorizing another player in those turns, and cause another players game to come to an abrupt halt.

I think I owe it to the other players to do all I can to stall this threat here. If I can stop it from taking on another player before they are ready, I think that is worth putting in the effort.

EDIT: Although thanks for the encouragement.

[Selrahc]

Very slightly premature announcement of my demise. But there is an uninjured Wraith looking at a single warrior in my last city.

Final Wraith Kill Count-9
Final Barb Kill Count-9
Tie game. They'll need to try again against a different civilization.

Lost the capital. The Wraith took no damage in any of its attacks except possibly the final one. I died in the minimum possible amount of time from my less than ten/30-40 turn guesstimates.

Once again, sorry to everyone for not doing better, particularly to the dedicated lurkers. I am actually kind of glad this wasn't a more prolonged execution though.