[SPOILERS]Brian Shanahan comes late to the party.

[kjn]

I played through the save, using my best guesses on how you moved.

Copper is 1E of the oasis (1NE of one of our proposed city spots).

How much benefit would we get from a religion. Early game, the main benefit is culture, and we are CRE. Shrine income is quite a bit away. With OR you can get a production boost, but that only come with Judaism.

I haven't done any real C&D, but I think we are first to BW. Will have to check soldier scores more closely, however.

[Brian Shanahan]

I played through the save, using my best guesses on how you moved.

Copper is 1E of the oasis (1NE of one of our proposed city spots).

How much benefit would we get from a religion. Early game, the main benefit is culture, and we are CRE. Shrine income is quite a bit away. With OR you can get a production boost, but that only come with Judaism.

I haven't done any real C&D, but I think we are first to BW. Will have to check soldier scores more closely, however.

With religion there is the matter of the happy boost, and the small chance of foreign spreads (I know it is worse with AW). The happy is the main reason for me as if we start getting WW a religion will help counter it.

I went with Fishing though as it gives the best immediate benefit, and after that we can think on AH (for seeing horses) and maybe Wheel/Pottery to connect resources and get commerce going.

Am playing the save now.

[Brian Shanahan]

Great bargain tonight, a two for the price of one offer.

First 3040 BC.

Well the big thing was BW at the end of the turn, and as KJ has said copper is south east of us 1E of the oasis. I should have seen it but didn't look (more fool me).

Apart from that, we're scouting our North East by proxy (by scouting Lewwyn's), and I saw a desert hill workshop up there.


Now for tonight's event

First of all I picked fishing (was going AH but decided against). Then I revolted to slavery, whip, whip, chop, chop.

Then my scout saw a fooderful site down by Lewwyn which should replicate over in our North East. And finally my second scout found another fish over by the jungled deer, giving me more headaches re city placement.


Screenshots have been amalgamated for both turns (3040 BC first in all cases):
First Lewwyin's land/our north-east:

Last night, "looks good, no suprises here". Tonight, "what's this, wheat for food, incense to keep the population high, and three extra FPs (one outside the BFC if planted on the scout). Nice"

Next our own South East:

Gives us a bit of a quandary, 2E of the scout (in the second shot) will give us fishies, crabbies, Bambi and copper. It will also give us 4 workable hills, 5 river tiles (to farm or cottage, we've lots of food) and 3 grassland tiles one with an already mature cottage on it.

It means though that to get the capital crabs on line we have to take a spot with a lot of overlap with the capital, either 3S1E or 3S2E, or to settle north of the oasis throwing out our dot-map up there.

Demographics:

Now we get to something interesting.
Notice the pop change, rival best going from 90k to 91k. That means someone got a settler out of a five man city without slaving and planted IBT. That can only mean the Vikings as they are the only civ with a 5 man capital as of 2980BC. So congrats to Serdoa for being the first out to two cities (I think). Of course that second city pushes us down the rankings elsewhere slightly.

The other big change is that we are now tops in soldier count (due solely to BW coming in, I take the Demogs after the turn end).

And finally Eps:

Thought I would have graphs on Scooter this turn, guess I was wrong. If trends continue I should next turn.

[kjn]

No surprise on Serdoa being early with a settler - he's used the fish quite effectively. I don't think anyone will beat us to three cities, however.

Yes, I also noticed the island village site. I think I'd rather have that than a relatively mediocre city 3SE of the capital. We can still get the crab improved by building a fort somewhere. It will delay improving the crab until Mathematics, however.

Northwards, I see cities by the incense, 1N/2N of the cow (picking up corn), and the pig/gold cities. Towards Lewwyn there is too little food from what I can see. We have decent production in Stand Idle, so the second city can push commerce.

[Brian Shanahan]

No surprise on Serdoa being early with a settler - he's used the fish quite effectively. I don't think anyone will beat us to three cities, however.

True that. We'll just have to push ahead of him from now out.

Yes, I also noticed the island village site. I think I'd rather have that than a relatively mediocre city 3SE of the capital. We can still get the crab improved by building a fort somewhere. It will delay improving the crab until Mathematics, however.

Well the carpy city was if we settled the site to get the commerce and all the goodies (I ignored them being all second ring due to CRE) and we didn't want to pull shennanigans with forts later on. It'd be a decent enough site early on, as Stand-Idle wouldn't be working all the BFC and would be able to work enough tiles to be viable later in the game.

Northwards, I see cities by the incense, 1N/2N of the cow (picking up corn), and the pig/gold cities. Towards Lewwyn there is too little food from what I can see. We have decent production in Stand Idle, so the second city can push commerce.

North has options, I see at least three pretty good cities up by the corn/wheat/sheep/incense/banana/etc. complex. Problem is dotting them so that they all become good later on when they mature. Two may be more feasible.
As regards between us and Lewwyn the only real rush area is to get the elephants, for denial, and frankly going north looks a better shot for us anyways.

[kjn]

Sitting with the save right now, trying to work out a decent settlement plan, since that will influence worker moves. We should also start moving a warrior or a scout towards where we want the first settler to go.

I'm not sure how you have thought about city placement, but should we go for few, high-quality cities (to lessen the impact of torroidal maintenance) or with more, smaller cities that can defend each other? I tend towards the former, but this being MP I think we have to lean towards the latter.

1N/2N of the cow. Will shield off our empire from the north. Lots of water tiles. I'd probably prefer 2N (better production, canal city...), but 1N will be far more defensible.

1E of the incense. Plains hill, plenty of commerce. Chop out workboat for food (via FGH) SW of incense).

(I toyed a little with placing a city 1S of the incense, but it'd be plenty crap.)

1W of the wheat (desert hill)/1NE of the sheep (plains hill). Wheat picks up spices but loses sheep, and is coastal. Sheep picks up sheep.

1N of copper. This would be a pure filler, if we go for the wheat placement.

2E of deer. This would be a dynamite city. On a plains hill, crab, fish, copper, deer.

1N of pigs/1W of pigs. With AH before Fishing, this would probably be one of my first plants, but now I think we have to delay the city. If we go 1W, then worker 1 should go 1NW and start mining. Start turn 18. First settler due turn 19, and can plant turn 21.

1SE of the stone. Can relatively easily canal to the capital crab. 1S of that (1N of windmill) is also an alternative.

[Brian Shanahan]

I'm not sure how you have thought about city placement, but should we go for few, high-quality cities (to lessen the impact of torroidal maintenance) or with more, smaller cities that can defend each other? I tend towards the former, but this being MP I think we have to lean towards the latter.

Toroidal maintenance on Noble is not the worst thing. Maintenance is at a pretty low base already, and can't rise too much from the extra distance costs. I've played toroidal on Prince and Monarch, and the trick is to time your expansion properly.

1N/2N of the cow. Will shield off our empire from the north. Lots of water tiles. I'd probably prefer 2N (better production, canal city...), but 1N will be far more defensible.

Giving up two hills for 25% bonus is probably slightly too much sacrifice. I prefer 2N as well. The site is going to be our main defensive spot to the north so it will have big forces, walls etc. if need be.

1E of the incense. Plains hill, plenty of commerce. Chop out workboat for food (via FGH) SW of incense).

(I toyed a little with placing a city 1S of the incense, but it'd be plenty crap.)

Another good spot, and 1S was the really crappy crab spotting city I was talking about.

1W of the wheat (desert hill)/1NE of the sheep (plains hill). Wheat picks up spices but loses sheep, and is coastal. Sheep picks up sheep.

I prefer the desert site myself. It is a strong food site and a good commerce site. It also defends better along that corridor (to the NE). We can pick up the sheep with a city 1SE of them.

1N of copper. This would be a pure filler, if we go for the wheat placement.

2E of deer. This would be a dynamite city. On a plains hill, crab, fish, copper, deer.

Don't like 1N of the copper, no matter what dot-map we use. 2E of the deer IMO is the next city. It picks up so much and gives us access to axes. It has potential for both hammers and commerce with the food it has.

1N of pigs/1W of pigs. With AH before Fishing, this would probably be one of my first plants, but now I think we have to delay the city. If we go 1W, then worker 1 should go 1NW and start mining. Start turn 18. First settler due turn 19, and can plant turn 21.

1N of the pigs is better. We can then place a city by the whale and use that more efficiently. 2S of the whale for example will block off the southern peninsula fairly strongly allowing us a jump off point in that direction.

Originally Pig/Gold was my choice of city 2 but the resources out east are more immediately demanded I think.

/QUOTE]1SE of the stone. Can relatively easily canal to the capital crab. 1S of that (1N of windmill) is also an alternative.[/quote]

Good spots those (depending on what's in the fog) didn't spot them.

I think 2E of the deer is a must for next site. We need the copper and the extra food will have us growing like weeds. After that it is a toss up between Pig/Gold, Incense, and Wheat/Corn.

[Brian Shanahan]

Well played the turn. Followed the micro-plan (except it says wheel before fishing). At end of turn found that we can whip the settler next turn.

I moved the two scouts, 1ST E/NE to see 2 fish over near the incense, and some more flood plains (which I expected). Another strong city site.

The second moved SE and saw some pigs directly south of the windmill over there, making that another good city to be planting.

It seems to be a map laid out pretty defensively, all the best sites either tucked away or arrayed in strong defensive positions. Add the oodles of choke-points and you could really turtle if you wanted.

I pushed 4 EPs to Scooter and 1 each to Lewwyn and Serdoa, I wanted the graphs. Which I duly got.

All the pics, land, demogs and graphs are zipped up and attached. Photobucket is a bit weird on my internet haning on the last upload in a multiple screenshot upload every time, so that's why they are not in the report:
Upload

[kjn]

I prefer the desert site myself. It is a strong food site and a good commerce site. It also defends better along that corridor (to the NE). We can pick up the sheep with a city 1SE of them.

Yes, to me the cities seemed about equal in quality - it's more a question on what you think the empire will need.

Don't like 1N of the copper, no matter what dot-map we use. 2E of the deer IMO is the next city. It picks up so much and gives us access to axes. It has potential for both hammers and commerce with the food it has.

Not sure I agree about going for Deernamite first. It is quite a bit away, will tie up a lot of worker actions getting a road there, and will split our military. It is also safely backline compared to almost every other settling option.

1N of the pigs is better. We can then place a city by the whale and use that more efficiently. 2S of the whale for example will block off the southern peninsula fairly strongly allowing us a jump off point in that direction.

Not sure I like 2S of the whale. Far too little food. We need to get better scouting of the east, too, especially around the gold. I think there might be more seafood there, eg.

Also, did you start a farm on the workshop with worker 1? That was mostly in the micro plan as makework - the real goal would be to start moving workers, warriors, and scout towards city spots 1 and 2 about now, so the settler can settle ASAP.

How about the following settling plan:

#1: incense/fish - gives good commerce at once, with decent food
#2 (which we get a turn after!): sheep/copper

(Build military while growing back)

Whip worker - overflow settler #3

Settler #3 can either go north towards the cow or settle around the golden pig. Sheep/copper will claim the copper at once, and will require less worker actions to connect to the rest of the capital than Deernamite.

[Brian Shanahan]

Yes, to me the cities seemed about equal in quality - it's more a question on what you think the empire will need.



Not sure I agree about going for Deernamite first. It is quite a bit away, will tie up a lot of worker actions getting a road there, and will split our military. It is also safely backline compared to almost every other settling option.



Not sure I like 2S of the whale. Far too little food. We need to get better scouting of the east, too, especially around the gold. I think there might be more seafood there, eg.

Also, did you start a farm on the workshop with worker 1? That was mostly in the micro plan as makework - the real goal would be to start moving workers, warriors, and scout towards city spots 1 and 2 about now, so the settler can settle ASAP.

How about the following settling plan:

#1: incense/fish - gives good commerce at once, with decent food
#2 (which we get a turn after!): sheep/copper

(Build military while growing back)

Whip worker - overflow settler #3

Settler #3 can either go north towards the cow or settle around the golden pig. Sheep/copper will claim the copper at once, and will require less worker actions to connect to the rest of the capital than Deernamite.

Farmed the workshop. Was following the micro.

If we're going east I'd rather move the other worker anyways. I'd still prefer the deer site over sheep copper. It's a far better site and will contribute to the empire almost from the start.

As regards the worker turns it can make it's own workers, after fishing boats. Ditto for defensive duties. This site is so strong that not bringing it into play ASAP IMO is a losing move.