Hashoosh gets into bed and Dhalphir sometimes watches from the closet (SPOILERS)

[Dhalphir]

It's a shame you were the mapmaker for this one Serdoa, I was going to ask you to join me in this game - then you had to go and make the map.

Although, Hashoosh, I must admit I am looking forward to seeing what we can accomplish.

[Serdoa]

Well, I wouldn't have enough time and would make stupid errors. Like that point about Courthouses being 45 instead of 60 hammers with ORG which obviously is bullshit. ORG changes it from 90 to 45 hammers. The difference from 60 to 45 comes from Sumeria. So either he could have had 45 (ORG+Sumeria), 60 (just ORG), 90 (just Sumeria) or 120 (neither). Also means that he saves as much with the Courthouses as with the Libraries and CRE, so overall ORG is probably a little bit stronger. Its hard to really quantify that though simply because so much depends on what you actually do with it. If you can secure and hold 30% more land due to the CRE popped border, you are probably better off with it. But if you are a rather defensive player that likes to go vertical it makes much less sense.

[Hashoosh]

ORG with Sumeria is 15h less potent than a non Sumerian ORG, so it would make a little more sense to not take org, simply because of its reduced potency.

With Sumeria, you 100% cannot ignore the religious line, because of Priesthood being the req for your cheap courthouses :P

A better choice for Sumer is either Kublai Khan or Ragnar, cheap early courthouses mean conquest is less costly, and CRE means you don't even need monuments! That's a little wasted if you go down the religious line, but not so much that it's entirely useless.

Financial is always a powerful trait, and will go nicely with those cheap Zigs.

The real kicker is the aggressive Vultures, coupled with 25h barracks. That means you can pump out 35h Swordsmen available at BW who have a bonus against melee units! And have them get shock or cover! Per city, thats 25 + 35x hammers on your vulture army (which are uncounterable with the barracks promo). So if you wanted 10 vultures, it's only 375 hammers. And good luck organizing a defense against that kind of firepower. They just need a few spears thrown in with them and they're gold. Hell, they don't need the spears unless the enemy has HAs.

Of course, with IND/ORG it's likely he'll be going for cheap forges/courthouses everywhere and then a vulture pump to knock out or cripple a neighbour. Or RExing. Who knows?

[Dhalphir]

Hashoosh - how do you want to handle turnplaying? If this is your first and only MP game, I don't mind if you want to handle being the primary turnplayer, as I have another Pitboss and PBEM to play to keep me occupied with actual civ.

[Hashoosh]

As long as you check on it. I'd like to be turnplayer, and if you feel that's wise, then I'm up for it.

Just remember I'm a noob at MP :P

[Dhalphir]

The sum total of my advantage in MP over you is ~70 turns worth of pitboss 13, and ~20 turns worth of PBEM53.

IE, basically nothing.

[Hashoosh]

1.Sevenspirits/Krill - Montezuma of Zulu
2.Zaldax - Huanya Capac of Byzantium
3.Gavagai - Darius I of Aztecs
4.2metraninja - Roosevelt of Sumeria
5.Jowy - Suryavarman II of Persia
6.Dhalphir & Hashoosh - Mansa Musa of Ottomans
7.Gaspar/Noble - Bismarck of Mali
8.Retep - Mehmed of Carthage
9.Kuro - Isabella of China - UP NOW
10.Mikehendi - Elizabeth of France
11.wetbandit - Hannibal of Egypt
12.Goreripper - Zara Yaqob of Greece

I'll write up an analysis on the strengths and weaknesses of each of these pairings.

1. The DreamTeam



Agg/Spi of Zulu
Ikhanda - 60h UB is now 30h from Agg
That's -20% maintenance for 1/4 the cost of the courthouse, available from the start. Oh god.
I'm surprised they didn't take Shaka tbh, for Exp granaries and cheap workers for RExing, but they've got a top tier trait in spiritual with Monty. Aggressive normal drawback is drastically curbed with that very powerful UB. Starting techs aren't bad, they've likely got a start similar to ours, with a cereal and a hunting happy (furs or ivory).

This is without even mentioning the UU, a 2-mover spearman. If they start next to the Egyptian, Persians or Carthaginians, they'll be righteously pissed. Of course, the spear can cover an early stack of chariots or HA from retaliation from other spears or especially mounted units in an early rush. It can also easily outrun its natural enemy in the axe if roads aren't built, and if they are it moves at the same pace. A deadly ancient age UU that stays relevant until engineering.

2. The Madman, Specifically Zaldax


Fin/Ind of Byzantium
Starting with mysticism is quite a drawback, but if you're Industrious you can leverage it to an early stonehenge and/or Oracle, and from there, MC. Early MC could be used by Ind to grab the Colossus, which when paired with HC's financial, is quite the combo. Plus, cheap forges from Ind lower the initial cost of the Colossus. Financial Colossus means 2/0/4 coasts and 2/0/3 oceans, and in the Moai city he could have a real monster going.

The UB for Byzantium is the epitome of meh, their strength comes from phracts. God, the phracts. Str 12 2 movers, with only pikemen capable of matching them. And even then, just barely. If we start near him, a top priority would be to gimp him before the medieval era, if he starts wonderwhoring that should be our cue to flood him with axes.

3. Gavagai

Fin/Org of Azteca
Mysticism/Hunting, probably the weakest starting tech combo out of the gate. A strong leader for sure, if there's water on this map Org could prove to be a very strong trait from the lighthouses. Financial, is financial, and is one of, if not the, power trait.

Organized sac altars is all this has going for it other than financial, and sac altars are somewhat wasted on an organized leader, as the cheap courthouse bonus is reduced because the base cost of the aztec courthouse is lower. The UU is a gimped sword, given that we'll have a balanced start, though woodsman 1 can be leveraged into a powerful medic unit.

4. 2metraninja


Ind/Org of Sumeria
Agri/Wheel. Strong tech combo indeed. Given that he's gone org/ind, a GLH build seems suspiciously on his horizon. Cheap forges and cheap ziggaurats, as well as cheap lighthouses is always good, so this may be a wonder whoring option. The UB, as with the Aztecs, is slightly wasted on Roosevelt, but that's nothing to cry over. Vultures are strong, but not gamebreakingly so. Well, if you're aggressive you could likely leverage them with Ziggaurats into a powerful early game lead, but he's not aggressive nor expansive. Or creative. 3 traits which I feel go really nicely with the Sumerians.

5. Jowy, Relaxed


Cre/Exp of Persia

Creative and Expansive have little to do with the Persians, who themselves are a very bland civ. The apothecary is sub par, at best. The immortal is good for an early rush, but only if your opponent lacks metals, which no one should in this game. The immortal also circumvents the Phalanx's defensive bonus, but doesn't receive bonus attack against it. Immortals beat chariots on defensive terrain, and that is their only advantage aside from taking out a non-metal empire (due to their adv vs. archers).

A bland pick

6.



Note: That's not a picture of me, and as I far as I'm aware, of Dhalphir.

We've painfully analyzed our picks throught the whole thread, so let's move on. It'd be nice to get some lurker feedback on our combo though

7. Gaspar and Noble
Exp/Ind Mali



Whelp, this will be another powerful team. Ind goes well with Mali for boosted Mints, and skirmishers are a powerful early game deterrent. Not much you can do to dislodge them short of catapults, or I guess Immortals. Expansive is always a good trait, and with Bismarck they could take their pick of an early wonder, thanks to having 25% more workers than everyone else for quick chops, and having early access to BW from starting with Mining.

8. Retep
Exp/Org of Carthage

This is probably the combo with the most cheap, strong early buildings, though harbours are a little on the extravagant side. The pricey Cothon is now reduced by 50% hammer cost, providing the opposite effect as the Organized Sac. Altars and Ziggs. It does require Compass to build though, which is quite off the beaten track until one wishes to take to the seas in force.

9. Kuro
Exp/Spi of China


China is the fastest starting civ in the game, and I expect that to be leveraged well with an expansive leader. He can move into slavery as soon as he reaches BW (which will be quickly, because China) and then do quick whips with cheap granaries. A strong combo that will start to run out of steam in the mid game, I think. The Chinese UU is nothing to sneeze at, it has the disadvantage of usually being selected as a defender, which catapults or trebuchets do not. The UB is meh.

10. Mikehendi
Fin/Phi of France


I'm astonished Elizabeth fell to 10th pick in a game with the top two financial civs banned.
France is a solid pick, better than the Ottomans by virtue of musketeers, though we are on about equal footing. The salon is such an odd UB that RBmod really turns into something desireable. By the time you have an observatory in a city, why the hell do you need an extra artist?
Silly BTS unique buildings...

11. Wetbandit

Fin/Cha of Egypt

Can you say synergy? If he gets Stonehenge he's basically +2 happy Willem of Oranje. That's a big if though. Obelisks and charismatic is potent, and it seems likely he'll be going for an early religion (or two). That said, there's always the cha WC to look out for, getting them to two promos after one combat means that they can take shock (!).
Financial, as always, is quite strong. This seems to be one of the better leader/civ pairings on the field right now.

12. Goreripper

(Brings back sweet memories)
Cre/Org of Greece

Now this is an interesting build. Cheap Odeons and the power of Org mean a pretty good early-mid game, but then his power significantly drops off. The phalanx is good for the first hundred turns, as it means you don't need spears to defend an early axe-army. However, if you're facing someone like Sumeria, Egypt or Carthage, you may be finding your UU to be useless.


Thoughts?

[Dhalphir]

great post, it was awesome to read it over breakfast.

I really don't know why KrillSeven didn't take Ragnar. Agg/Fin would have been superior to Agg/Spi in every single way, and still would have given them their ikhanda synergy.

[Hashoosh]

Although, Hashoosh, I must admit I am looking forward to seeing what we can accomplish.

Aye, let's knock some teeth in. Which would probably be best represented by this:



So you're an Indian court drama, and I'm a Sheikh. We should mesh nicely together.

Edit: That looks like the Iranian flag in the background

The plot thickens...

[Hashoosh]

That was with mining -> hunting -> bronze -> pottery -> writing -> animal husbandry

2 settlers, 3 workers, 1 warrior and a granary by t50.

Does anyone know a good place where I can upload the WB sandbox?