EitB 0011 Wishlist/Discussion

[Qgqqqqq]

Dunno about giving Insane to Hannah. It's thematically appropriate, but it takes away from the uniqueness of Perpentach.

What about making Volanna Agg/Ing? A fantastic trait and a lousy one, but a lousy one that has a lot of synergy with her gameplan (cheap Satyr upgrades!) That sounds roughly balanced with the other Svartalfar (Agg/Cre still seems better than Rai/Arc or Org/Summ).

It does take away from Perpy...but on the other hand, the Bals have a lot going for them, so its probably not overpowered, and it works thematically, and it makes an underpowered leader have a unique take. All in all, it's worthwhile IMO.

I like this plan for Volanna. It probably puts her beneath the other two by a bit, but not by a ridiculous amount (given the illusions are still a nerf), and certainly AGG/CRE is more powerful.

Alternatively, what about Agg/Summ/Ing for Averax? Makes good thematic sense for all Sheaim to be Summoners. Averax couldn't make great use of it but he could really use Ing to help with a Pyre Zombie rush. Those traits make more sense to me than Expansive. (Sounds a bit underpowered but imo all the Sheaim leaders are underpowered; rather than try to fix them individually by handing out economic traits or making Summ into an economic trait, I think it would be better to give boosts to the civ itself.)

As you'll see below, I plan on changing Os Gabella, because it doesn't work for her. Whilst I'm not opposed to weakening Averax I hope that with the boosts to Summoner that the leaders will all be decent again. The Sheiam will need boosts as well, but hopefully the leaders won't be a weakness in and of themself.

Besides, by the time you're at sorcery S4 (no modifiers available) fireballs are a little pathetic, truth be told.

Individual fireballs don't do much... but giving almost every unit in your army (and even your workers!) the ability to throw a fireball every turn in addition to attacking? That's pretty powerful even in the late game.

It is powerful, but it requires a lot of time to setup and doesn't scale well once one side has powerful enough defenders that they just bounce off - then it becomes simply another collateral source.

I don't think the lack of speed should be inherently changed or, at most only alleviated (a haste or mobility alternative, but no more then 2 moves).

Agreed. I think letting golems pick up Mobility I from Barny would go a long way and fits with their existing theme/gameplay. But no faster than that; let the Luchuirp keep their weakness, but make it a little less crippling.

I think they do need some way to go from 1->2 moves, but I'm not sure if I want to add to their reliance on Barnaxus...

Actually, there's an idea. How about we make it so that when Barnaxus is rebuilt, he comes with all his previous promotions and experience? That means it is still a risk to lose him, as it wipes out your armies power until you can return the pieces to a city, but not a mortal risk as he doesn't start from scratch.

If that was the case, I think I'd be fine with letting him grant mobility to his followers. Its a big boost...but they do need a boost.


Os Gabella

Unfortunately Ossie is just flat out anti-synergistic, summoner does not work with SPI. Even with the improvements, it doesn't make sense to be focusing her in different ways. Besides, she wasn't originally SUM anyway.
Proposal:

• Change her from SPI/SUM -> SPI/CHA.

Summoner

Blah blah blah, we've done the summoner spiel before. Current plan.
Proposal:

• Give Summoner Spell Extension I to all arcane units.
  
• Add a spell allowing any adept with summoner to summon weakened (-2 Strength, -1 Movement) versions of the mage summons (Spectres, Hosts and Pit Beasts).

[Bobchillingworth]

I think that most of the time if you've lost Barnaxus you're screwed no matter what, since whoever killed him will move his pieces as far away as possible (or outright delete them, using one of the various artifact-destroying exploits). I guess keeping promotions helps if you've lost him against barbs.


A couple ideas RE: Luchiurp mobility-


Give the Luchuirp two new promotion-providing structures (or just replace the mostly-worthless non-blasting workshop buildings). Have one grant golems the "light" promotion, with all the advantages and disadvantages that implies. The other can provide Commando.


Alternatively, give Dwarven Mages the ability to cast a spell which functions like Haste for golems.



In either scenario you'd want to increase their cost again. Golems can be a little faster, or cheaper, but they shouldn't be both- they do have very high base strength after all, and excellent immunities.



I agree with HK that fireballs are pretty good all game-long. Don't discount the collateral Qg, nor the fact that they can rapidly strip city defenses and strike across water and mountains. Being able to cast them is a major advantage over their living counterparts.

[HidingKneel]

Blah blah blah, we've done the summoner spiel before. Current plan.
Proposal:

• Give Summoner Spell Extension I to all arcane units.
  
• Add a spell allowing any adept with summoner to summon weakened (-2 Strength, -1 Movement) versions of the mage summons (Spectres, Hosts and Pit Beasts).

Wait, would the "weaker" spectres get Death affinity? If so, that sounds too strong to me. It's a lot easier to get Necromancy and Adepts than it is to get Sorcery and Mages, and early access to high strength disposable summons is huge.

In my opinion, adding Spell Extension I is plenty. The trait already gives arcane units Summoner promotions and doubles the durations of summons. It's a huge boost if that's the direction you want to go, but doesn't help you get there. Looking at the individual summoner leaders:

Os Gabella is no longer a summoner.
Keelyn just got a new trait (I'd prefer to let her have double length non-summoner puppets instead, though)
Rivanna is a Svartalfar; she'll be fine. (Summoner synergizes with choosing Esus over FoL! Thematic.)
Hyborem just got boosted.
Tebryn is potentially terrifying if you can get him off the ground, so it doesn't bother me that it's hard to do so.

[HidingKneel]

Give the Luchuirp two new promotion-providing structures (or just replace the mostly-worthless non-blasting workshop buildings). Have one grant golems the "light" promotion, with all the advantages and disadvantages that implies. The other can provide Commando.

I really like the first half of this idea (a building that gives "light"). I think "light" + "commando" is too much (I agree with Q that somewhat limited mobility should just be a price you pay for picking that civ), and also that "commando" doesn't really fit the golem theme.

What about also a building that gives "heavy"? So Luchuirp could specialize their cities for certain kinds of golems, even more so than now.

Each building should require a certain kind of mana. "Earth" for Heavy? "Air" for Light?

In either scenario you'd want to increase their cost again. Golems can be a little faster, or cheaper, but they shouldn't be both- they do have very high base strength after all, and excellent immunities.

Not sure about this. The cost of getting the buildings up (not just the hammers, but also researching the appropriate techs and securing the relevant mana) shouldn't be ignored.

I agree with HK that fireballs are pretty good all game-long.

Yeah; even ignoring the value of collateral, there's very few units that can actually ignore being bombarded by a lot of fireballs.
Maybe if you got a sufficiently high strength unit with magic resistance, fire resistance and lots of first strikes ... but that takes a lot of promotions and isn't something that Luchuirp opponents can order in bulk, even late game.

[Mardoc]

Instead of -1 Str to summons, how about -50% Str? Or -30%, or something like that. It surely isn't that hard to create a new promotion that does that?

[Qgqqqqq]

Blah blah blah, we've done the summoner spiel before. Current plan.
Proposal:

• Give Summoner Spell Extension I to all arcane units.
  
• Add a spell allowing any adept with summoner to summon weakened (-2 Strength, -1 Movement) versions of the mage summons (Spectres, Hosts and Pit Beasts).

Wait, would the "weaker" spectres get Death affinity? If so, that sounds too strong to me. It's a lot easier to get Necromancy and Adepts than it is to get Sorcery and Mages, and early access to high strength disposable summons is huge.

In my opinion, adding Spell Extension I is plenty. The trait already gives arcane units Summoner promotions and doubles the durations of summons. It's a huge boost if that's the direction you want to go, but doesn't help you get there. Looking at the individual summoner leaders:

Os Gabella is no longer a summoner.
Keelyn just got a new trait (I'd prefer to let her have double length non-summoner puppets instead, though)
Rivanna is a Svartalfar; she'll be fine. (Summoner synergizes with choosing Esus over FoL! Thematic.)
Hyborem just got boosted.
Tebryn is potentially terrifying if you can get him off the ground, so it doesn't bother me that it's hard to do so.

Yes they have death affinity. I disagree, however, as to how much easier it is to field tons of death mana then mages. And the adept spells will be getting you Strength 1 (+1 Death Affinity) Movement 2 units, whilst the mages have Strength 3 (+ 1 Death Affinity) Movement 3 units, so one is clearly a lot more powerful then the other. If you can field the 4ish death mana nessecary to make them deadly...then you'd be in a very strong position regardless.

Maybe its not a boost that's needed. But I doubt it is overpowered, and as TBS said, having a trait that doesn't kick in until sorcery is pretty sucky.

Instead of -1 Str to summons, how about -50% Str? Or -30%, or something like that. It surely isn't that hard to create a new promotion that does that?

I can roll that into the unit itself (same area as Eidilons) and may do so for the next version, but didn't think of it at the time.


I like all the golem ideas.


In case you missed it, EitB v11 is released. New wishlist thread created.

[Bobchillingworth]

@ HK-


Funnily enough, one of the early versions of vanilla FFH actually had structures which provided the Light and Heavy promotions to golems. I'm not sure why that was stripped from the game.



Concerning golem mobility vs. cost, I think it's important to bear in mind that golems have several advantages over their living counterparts. Compare the Iron Golem to the Champion- the Iron Golem has +4 base strength, can start with an additional +50% strength, and is immune to poison, death, the Ice I spell "Slow", disease, rust, fear and mind control. If the Iron Golem is roughly the same speed as the Champ and costs the same amount, it's a massively better unit. Vampires are significantly better than Champions too, but you pay 50% more for them.

[Bobchillingworth]

Forgot to say, I agree with all of HK's thoughts regarding Summoner.

[HidingKneel]

and is immune to poison, death, the Ice I spell "Slow", disease, rust, fear and mind control.

That's a long list of immunities but all of them sound pretty situational. If you add "immune to haste" to that list, I'd say it comes out a net negative.

The higher strength is nice but is somewhat offset by an inability to use metal weapons.

+50% strength is nice but isn't automatic and doesn't measure up well against the ability to take promotions (most of your opponents will probably be running civics that give free xp) or to receive buffs like Enchanted Blade. Also offset by the downsides of "light", if that's going to be the only way to get faster golems.

[HidingKneel]

Yes they have death affinity. I disagree, however, as to how much easier it is to field tons of death mana then mages.

That depends entirely on the map. If the map has enough mana, getting control of four or five nodes wouldn't necessarily require much of an investment or entail that you were in an otherwise dominant position.

Also, spectres can do other things like pillage and snatch workers. Even as 2-movers, they add a lot of reach to the damage that you can do to your opponent (that's two moves on top of whatever moves your adept makes, after all). I definitely think they're too strong to give access to so early in the game.