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chumchu · May 5th, 2020, 04:44

Nice! I will be happy to try it out in single player to see if there are any bugs if you like.

If you want a further balance nudge that is a smaller change I would consider either 1) making caste system high upkeep as it is currently the go-to late game peacetime civic or if that is still too little 2) make emancipation no upkeep.
In a large empire with 20 cities and 250 pop on emperor going from low to no upkeep is a 23 commerce saving. More with inflation which should be a significant factor by that time.

[Difficulty * [ Organized * ( [ PUpkeep * (population-10) ] + [ CUpkeep * (cities+1) ]
[1 * [ 1 * ( [ 0.08 * (240) ] + [ 0.2 * (20+1) ]

PUpkeep CUpkeep 2
Low 0.08 0.4
Medium 0.12 0.5
High 0.16 0.6

Thank you! I might post it here when I am content with its current state.

Charriu

Changing costs is definitely an option in the labor tree that I will consider. But at first I would like to leave it as it is right now. There are quite a lot of changes to Serfdom and Emancipation and I first would like to do some test games to see how those changes play out. If those changes turn out good, the cost is a good tool to fine-tune the balance in the labor tree.

EDIT: And thank you for volunteering to be a guinea pig. :D

Mjmd · May 7th, 2020, 17:55

Here is my $1 of current version .2. Mind I am looking at this from outside perspective and conservative perspective and generally just trying to reduce wall of text syndrome which made me not want to do an RtR game.

Techs: choose 9/11 of the current changes.
Buildings: Aqueduct: If you don't feel strongly enough to change more, leave it as is.
Wonders: SoZ with changes to war wariness maybe push back when it obsolete a bit? Just seems a bit soon.
Civs: wall of text alert! Cut 4.

Charriu

(May 7th, 2020, 17:55)Mjmd Wrote: Techs: choose 9/11 of the current changes.

Why 9 of 11?

(May 7th, 2020, 17:55)Mjmd Wrote: Buildings: Aqueduct: If you don't feel strongly enough to change more, leave it as is.

Would a stronger cost reduction satisfy you? I would be willing to go to 80.

(May 7th, 2020, 17:55)Mjmd Wrote: Wonders: SoZ with changes to war wariness maybe push back when it obsolete a bit? Just seems a bit soon.

Rifling might be an option. But I would like to do some test games before doing another change here.

(May 7th, 2020, 17:55)Mjmd Wrote: Civs: wall of text alert! Cut 4.

Again why 4? If its just too much text, I can cut some bullet points by simply collecting changes in one bullet point like all the civs, who's UB no longer obsolete, can be addressed in just one bullet point. The most important changes here are nerfs to:

Byzantium
Inca
India
Rome
Zulu

Equally important are buffs to:

America
Germany
Russia
Japan
Native America

Then there are some changes that might not be necessary and only address some annoyances like:

Byzantium UB
France UB
Japan UU

Lastly there are changes that should make civs more interesting, but are certainly mostly flavor. These ones would be the first I would get rid of:

Arabia UU
Babylon UB
Korea UU
Korea UB
Maya UU

Mjmd · May 8th, 2020, 07:35

Everyone likes debating changes / making changes. I figured my contribution could mainly be cutting down wall of text for people like me who are trying to enter. Sure Aqueducts aren't used much, but is that more the nature of curated maps with lots of different health resources? In any case 10 hammers discount seemed not worth. 9/11 is because its less than 10. Cut 4 was because I liked a lot of the civ changes and couldn't bring myself to say 6. Anyways you asked for my $1 earlier so figured I could at least provide a different perspective.

Charriu · May 8th, 2020, 11:43

Ok now I understand you and I will trim the changelog some more.

Charriu

This is only the changelog compared to version 0.1. All differences between versions are in yellow. If you prefer a clean changelog just look at the second post of this thread. You will also notice that some more points and text has changed. These are not actual changes. I only tried to reduce wall-of-text syndrome or improve the explanation. In addition I moved some changes to the bugfix section. If you think this is not justified, please tell me and they will move back to the gameplay part of the changelog.
You will also notice that I included the Events, Bugfix and Game Option section. I kept those in spoilers to reduce additional wall-of-text syndrome.

Most importantly, this is the first release of Call to Home. party

You will find a new download thread in the forum, which includes a link to the mod.

Changelog version 1.0

Tile Yields and Improvements

Lumbermills: Available at Machinery, +1 commerce, +1 commerce with Electricity, Lumber mills now +1 commerce on the corner of rivers
Forest preserves: +1 commerce, now +1 commerce on the corner of rivers like above

Game Mechanics

Drafting: Rifles now cost 2 pop to draft. A city must now end a draft at size 6 instead of size 5 (So size 8 to draft a rifle, size 7 to draft a musket).
AP Resolutions: Declare War (on a non-member), Force Peace (between two members), Religious victory, and Assign City are no longer eligible resolution actions.
Fail-gold: You never get fail-gold if you also completed the wonder somewhere else (so no National Wonder fail-gold, or doubling up on a wonder to guarantee yourself a paycheck. The game still informs you that you received "0 gold" from your hammers).
Toroidal Maintenance: Now return city maintenance as if the map were Cylindrical.
Inflation: Inflation rate now increases with the players tech state. Instead of turns increasing inflation, it now increases with every researched tech. Previously inflation only depended on how many turns had past, and so if the global tech rate was very high (due to lots of tech trading), players would reach high end-game yields and still have very little inflation - which would increase the tech rate further. With this change, there will be higher inflation in games which have lots of tech trading. (And the inflation will be slightly higher for players with better tech!) Inflation still occurs with increasing turn numbers, but in addition if (All techs you discovered / All available techs) * Maximum turn numbers is higher then the current turn, inflation takes the calculated turn from techs as a base for the calculation.
War Weariness: War weariness declines faster after the war ended
Religion spread: Spreading religions via missionaries to your own cities never fails
Global warming: Removed
Espionage: Active missions removed
Espionage: 'No espionage' option fixed, see bugfix section for more details

Techs

Agriculture: Cost 40 instead of 60
Mysticism: Cost 60 instead of 50
Hunting: Cost 50 instead of 40
Archery: Cost 40 instead of 60
Animal Husbandry: Cost 80 instead of 100
Metal Casting: Cost 300 instead of 450
Alphabet: Cost 250 instead of 300
Hunting: No longer enables Scouts instead gives scouts +1 movement bringing them to their normal 2 movement moved to the Unit section
Astronomy: Add Paper as another prerequisite
Radio: +1 sea visibility
Refrigeration: lose +1 sea movement

Buildings

Aqueduct: Cost 90 instead of 100
Castle: Obsoletes at Corporation instead of Economics
Customs House: Cost 120 instead of 180, also applies to all UBs based on Customs House (Feitoria)

National Wonders

Red Cross: Cost 200 instead of 600
West Point: Cost 550 instead of 800, +5 XP instead of 4, Requires a level 5 unit instead of 6

Wonders

Resource modifiers: All wonders that had +100% production with a specific resource now only have +50% production with that resource.
Great Lighthouse: +1 trade route in coastal cities instead of +2
Statue of Zeus: Obsolete at Gunpowder

Unit mechanics

Flanking: Flanking strength (used to calculate damage from flanking strikes) of all units reduced by 50%.
Circumnavigation: +1 trade route in all coastal cities instead of +1 movement and can be achieved by everybody
Coastal blockade: only blocks trade routes, blockaded cities can still work blocked tiles.

Land units

Scout: +200% vs animals instead of +100%, no tech required, that way everybody starts with a scout, movement 1 (+1 gained with Hunting)
Swordsman: +20% city attack instead of +10%, also applies to UUs Jaguar Warrior and Gallic Swordsman
War elephant: Strength 7 instead of 8
Airship: Cannot see submarines
ICBM: Cost 1500 instead of 500
Tactical Nuke: Cost 750 instead of 250
Nukes: Nukes never create fallout on tiles containing strategic resources.

Naval units

Work Boat: no longer require any tech (still require Fishing to work water tiles).
Workboats no longer count as military units for upkeep. They're also no longer considered a military unit so a War Academy will not speed their production. Moved to bugfixes
Privateer: Required techs are Gunpowder and Astronomy instead of Chemistry and Astronomy
Submarine and Attack Submarine: Flanking vs Transports

Corporations

Tech: Discovering the corresponding tech for a corporation earns you an executive of that corporation. To settle the HQ you still need a great person.
Sid's Sushi Co.: Food bonus per resource 0.25 instead of 0.5 and culture bonus per resource 1 instead of 2, maintenance costs halfed
Mining Inc.: Hammer bonus per resource 0.75 instead of 1, maintenance costs 3/4 of original

Civics

Serfdom: Workers build tile improvements 75% faster instead of 50%, +1 hammer on Farms and Watermills, +1 commerce on Windmills
Emancipation: No anarchy turns, lose unhappiness bonus, gain +10% Hammer in all cities
State Property: Lose +10% Hammer in all cities
Environmentalism: Available at Biology instead of Medicine, remove Corporation costs
Vassalage: Medium cost instead of High

Traits

Financial: +1 commerce on land tiles that have 3+ commerce, +1 commerce on water tiles that have 2+ commerce
Expansive: Remove Worker bonus, add +100% production of Aqueduct and Grocer
Creative: Reduce Library bonus from 100% to 35%
Charismatic: +100% production of Monument, +35% production of Library
Imperialistic: +100% production of Customs House and Stable
Aggressive: +25% production of worker
Protective: +75% trade route yield (like Harbors do)

Civs

UBs no longer obsolete at any time. Affected civs are Celts, Egypt, Ethiopia, Native America, Spain
America UB: NEW Immigration Station - Harbor replacement, +3 Great People Points, +1 happy from Hit Musical, Singles and Movies
America UU: NEW Minuteman - Musket replacement, Starts with Guerrilla 1 and Woodsman 1.
Arabia UU: +25% withdrawl instead of +15%
Babylon UB Needs something else, see explanation for ideas Replace Granary; available at Agriculture; only +1 health
Byzantium UB: Replace Colosseum instead of Theatre, +1 happy from horse, +1 happy per 10 culture instead of 20
Byzantium UU: Strength 11 instead of 12, first strike immune like normal knight
France UB: +1 free specialist instead of +1 artist
Germany UB: Assembly Plant available at Steam Power instead of Assembly line, +2 hammer
Germany UU: NEW Riesengarde - replace Grenadier, available at Chemistry, starts with Pinch
Inca UB: +1 culture instead of +2, Cost 70 instead of 60
India UU: movement 2 instead of 3, start with Mobility promotion, Cost 70 instead of 60
Japan UB: NEW Tatara, Forge replacement - +2 XP to Melee
Japan UU: requires Copper or Iron instead of only Iron
Khmer UU: Stays at 8 strength instead of base units now 7 strength, requires Ivory or Iron
Korea UB: Cost 180 instead of 200
Korea UU: Targets melee first outside of cities
Maya UU: Starts with Woodsman 1
Native America Tech: Hunting/Agriculture instead of Fishing/Agriculture
Native America UB: Available at Archery instead of Mysticism, additional +1 XP for gunpowder units, never obsoletes
Rome UU: Strength 7 instead of 8, only +10% city attack compared to base unit, cost 40 just like base unit
Russia UB: Replace University instead of Laboratory - Cost 180 instead of 200, only +1 free scientist
Spain UB: Never obsoletes, +2 XP for naval units
Zulu UU: Remove Mobility promotion

Leaders

Also included are three new leaders for the missing trait combos ORG/PRO, CHM/CRE and IND/PRO

Events

New game options

BUG integration

Additional bug fixes

Added bugfixes from Unoffical Patch https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/u...19.324024/:

Charriu · May 9th, 2020, 01:50

(May 9th, 2020, 01:16)Charriu Wrote:
Inflation: Inflation rate now increases with the players tech state. Instead of turns increasing inflation, it now increases with every researched tech. Previously inflation only depended on how many turns had past, and so if the global tech rate was very high (due to lots of tech trading), players would reach high end-game yields and still have very little inflation - which would increase the tech rate further. With this change, there will be higher inflation in games which have lots of tech trading. (And the inflation will be slightly higher for players with better tech!) Inflation still occurs with increasing turn numbers, but in addition if (All techs you discovered / All available techs) * Maximum turn numbers is higher then the current turn, inflation takes the calculated turn from techs as a base for the calculation.

I had a closer inspection of the inflation implementation in K-mod. I chose to go with a simpler implementation for Close to Home. The main goal with this change is due reduce the overall ramping tech increase in "Tech Trading" games. This also has the side effect of increasing costs for players, who are leading considerabley in tech. I do notice that this might be an issue and would consider coupeling this to the "Tech Trading" game option or making it a game option of its

(May 9th, 2020, 01:16)Charriu Wrote:
Archery: Cost 40 instead of 60

At first I just copied this change blindely from RtR without thinking as much about it. Some research revealed that it was implemented there to combat increased costs of the Hunting tech. This is actually the case here in Close to Home with Hunting increasing from 40 to 50 base cost. But I think an increase of the Hunting tech does not justify another change to Archery. Yes if you don't have Hunting and Archery and suddenly have the need for Archers, you are at a disadvantage compared to BtS. But at the same time if you don't have those two techs, you are already at a disadvantage and no reduction to Archery will make the situation any better for you nor will a slight increase of Hunting hurt you any more. There is of course one issue. Because of the reduction of Animal Husbandry it is easier to get to chariots earlier. At the same time it's harder to get Hunting and Bronze Working to be able to build Spearman. I do notice that this is an issue and I will take further investigation of it.

(May 9th, 2020, 01:16)Charriu Wrote:
Radio: +1 sea visibility

This is unfortunately not possible right now. I would need to adjust the DLL further, which is no problem. But at the same time after some testing I do think that the sea visibilty is fine at the moment.

(May 9th, 2020, 01:16)Charriu Wrote:
Aqueduct: Cost 90 instead of 100

Mjmd made a good point about the cost reduction. While nice it won't make you build Aqueducts earlier or more of them. There's still not enough reason to build them even with reduced cost. Because of the minimal effect of this change, I decided to remove it.

(May 9th, 2020, 01:16)Charriu Wrote:
Customs House: Cost 120 instead of 180, also applies to all UBs based on Customs House (Feitoria)

Swordsman: +20% city attack instead of +10%, also applies to UUs Jaguar Warrior and Gallic Swordsman

I expected that everybody assumed that those also applied to the replacing units and buildings, but it's better to clearly state this in the log.

(May 9th, 2020, 01:16)Charriu Wrote:
Serfdom: Workers build tile improvements 75% faster instead of 50%, +1 hammer on Farms and Watermills, +1 commerce on Windmills

Hitru already made a good point that the increased worker speed, unnecessarly boosts Spiritual. It's also the change with the smallest impact on the civic, so I removed it.

(May 9th, 2020, 01:16)Charriu Wrote:
Emancipation: No anarchy turns, lose unhappiness bonus, gain +10% Hammer in all cities

This was already discussed earlier by Chumchu and I agree with him. The "no anarchy" was introduced to address rebuilding your cottage economy after pillaging. But the effect for this usecase is to small and the impact on other things too big, so remove it is.

(May 9th, 2020, 01:16)Charriu Wrote:
Arabia UU: +25% withdrawl instead of +15%

Trimming the fat in the civs section. The big question with this change is: Will this make you consider playing Arabia more then compared to BtS. I personally don't consider Arabia more because of that. It also does not make the UU any more interesting. Therefore I removed the change, because of its lessened impact.

(May 9th, 2020, 01:16)Charriu Wrote:
Babylon UB Needs something else, see explanation for ideas Replace Granary; available at Agriculture; only +1 health

This is a larger departure from BtS, but I think this makes the UB a lot more interesting compared to the original boring +2 health colosseum. This is also a change that was universally liked in RtR. The only question is if the UB needs an additional cost reduction to be more useful after Pottery.

(May 9th, 2020, 01:16)Charriu Wrote:
Japan UU: requires Copper or Iron instead of only Iron

The big question here is how often are you in the situation that you can build maceman and don't have iron. This would mostly happen in a SP game, but rarely in an MP game. I do realize that only relying on iron is annoying, but at the same time the impact is so small that I don't want to bloat up the changelog any more.

(May 9th, 2020, 01:16)Charriu Wrote:
Korea UB: Cost 180 instead of 200

Russia UB: Replace University instead of Laboratory - Cost 180 instead of 200, only +1 free scientist

Similar to the Aqueduct I think the cost reduction of the Korean UB is not enough to have any real impact. At the same time I think Korea becomes interesting enough with the change to the UU alone. Therefore I remove the cost reduction. At the same time I removed the cost reduction on the Russian UB. It would be to unbalanced compared to the Korean UB to keep it at the lower cost.

Charriu · May 10th, 2020, 06:25

I've been thinking and testing a lot with the starting techs right now, mainly focused on starts that only have an Animal Husbandry resource (pig, cow and sheep). This alone is the reason why Agriculture is valued highest of all the starting techs, if you don't know the start. While testing in BtS I think I found one - if not the - main cause for this imbalance. It's the fact that settling on a plains hill gives you an additional 1 hammer on the city tile (of course this is also possible by settling on specific resources). Because of this the worker gets build in 12 instead of 15 turns and yes the same goes for the worker bonus from traits. You always are able to tech Agriculture or Hunting during those 12 turns, so in essence you can expect to work your Agriculture and Hunting resources 3 turns earlier compared Animal Husbandry resources. If you do tests without plains hill and the worker bonus the difference between Agriculture/Hunting resources and Animal Husbandry resource shrink to a point were there's not much difference between connecting your first food tech.

Now with all this said I don't want to remove the plains hill bonus as it's so central to the game and people would start open rebellion if I do so. I just wanted to point out that this is one of the leading causes for this problem.

What can be done about this problem. Well I only see the following things:

Decrease the costs of Animal Husbandry to 80: This certainly helps some civs get closer to Agriculture/Hunting civs, but not in a way that I'm totally satisfied. The main problems with this change is that it messes a lot with the chariot rush situation and is therefore a bigger change to the overall balance of the game. I will most likely revert this change in the next version.
Move the pasture resources to Hunting or an other starting tech: RtR did this. It definitley solves the problem quite well, but at the same time it is a bigger change to the pace of the game compared to BtS. It's one of those things that new players of RtR consistenly trip over, albeit being regarded positively for balance. Moving pasture to Hunting definitely fits with the theme of the tech, too, while giving it to Mysticism might increase its value a lot.
Add another starting tech as prerequisite for Animal Husbandry: This opens up Animal Husbandry in the same way as Agriculture/Hunting, but which techs would be legit for this. The Wheel is immediately off, because it speeds up the chariot rush it also only affects 4 civs. Fishing already gives access to food resources and access to better commerce tiles to improve teching AH, so this is possible but uncessary for me (6 civs affected). Lastly there is Mining, which has enough value as a prerequiste to BW, but would affect the most civs with 8 and Mysticism, which is the worst starting tech, so this would increase its value (6 civs affected). Still I doubt I will go with this option, because it still feels like a lot of change to the game.
Increase the cost of a worker to 75: Now this is a total game changer and would only work if I decrease the worker cost with one of the techs following up after the starting techs. Even then it would change the game considerably. But this would bring every plains hill start back to the 15 turns for a worker. This would work in equalizing the food resources, but at the expense of people crucifying me. Not worth it.
Improve all civs without Agriculture/Hunting to compensate for the start. This needs more explanation, so bare with me:

What's the current state for civs regarding starting in CtH:

First of all for reference 12 of 34 civs start with Agriculture.
Hunting: The scout changes negate the biggest disadvantage of Hunting. It also gives access to at least 1 resource. With the additional cost increase to 50 it's value definitely increased compared to Agriculture. You always could achieve the same results on an AH-resource-only-star and now you don't get any disadvantages compared to Agriculture. So all the civs with Hunting/not-Agriculture (10 civs) are viable now.
This leaves more or less two groups of this a group of civs that start with Fishing, but without Agriculture/Hunting (6 civs) and a group of civs that start with two of either Mysticism, Mining or The Wheel (6 civs). Let's focus on the Fishing group first.
Now one thing that the Fishing group has is that they immediatly can work water tiles, which give more commerce. That way they can tech Animal Husbandry faster, if they have any water tile in their starting BFC. This helps a little bit. Still this is not enough.
Another important fact is that 4 of those civs (Carthage, England, Portugal, Rome) also start with Mining, which is great because if you need to research AH first, you also need to delay Bronze Working a lot. Thanks to Mining this disadvantage is lessened.
Now the last thing to say about this group is that it contains some civs that are still taking regularly dispite their worse starting techs namely Carthage and Rome, and on water maps maybe Portugal. I hope to move Japan and Spain into this category with their civ changes.
Let's return to that last group of civs consisting of Arabia, Byzantium, India, Korea, Mali and Maya.
Like before it's worth mentioning that 4 of them get Mining (India, Korea, Mali and Maya) and there are some civs in here that get chosen regularly like Byzantium, India and Mali.

Looking at all of this, there are some civs that have a serious starting problem or not enough additional value to be chosen. Those are:

England
Japan
Portugal (on land)
Spain
Arabia
Korea
Maya

I hope with my civ changes that Japan, Spain, Korea and Maya could leave this group.

TL:DR I'm quite at a loss, how to change this without a big impact on the pace of the game. The only thing I know right now, is that the cost reduction to AH has to go and the best way is to improve those bad civs further.

Charriu · May 10th, 2020, 07:12

Just another crazy thought that popped into my mind. Give the Palace another +2 commerce or better direct beakers on Mysticism or somewhere else. It increases Mysticisms value; it speeds up all tech and of course Animal Husbandry similar like a Fishing civ can do. The following civs would be buffed by this change:

Arabia
Aztec
Byzantium
Celts
Holy Roman Empire
Inca
India
Korea
Maya
Spain

I need to think about this some more.

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