[PB65 LURKERS] We lurk in single-file to hide our numbers

[civac2]

The PRO discount for markets is fairly impactful in suffer games like this. I don't remember if the PB65 version of CTH already had that.

If I read Pindicator's post correctly, Pindicator was unable to prevent Cornflakes from using his land to attack Mjmd since he had a peace treaty and recent OB with Cornflakes.

[Ginger*]

I’m in love with Pindicator’s reasoning right now: Mjmd won’t give peace, he must be crazy
He won’t give peace at the terms you’ve offered. Make it worth his while lol.
Like Pindi is the one who needs the respite to push buildings

I’ve never seen such victim mentality in an aggressor

[Tarkeel]

I can't see any bridges in Cornflakes screenshots, I think SAC might not have construction yet.

[naufragar]

Oops. I misread the colors. Cornflakes had been plotting against SAC not SD. 

I want to like Camel Archers so bad. March is just a sexy promo. Who knows if that'll be relevant, though.

[Charriu]

T150
As always all the data can be found here: PB65 Tracking

Before we start some notable observations. I have to be honest though, I have stopped watching this PB closely during these 50s turns. Let's see what I can guess from my data alone:

Since this PB is running CtH 3.0, we got some new data points. By now I've explained all data points here: data points explanation

General state of the game
City count

1. Pindicator (IMP) = 18
   
2. Mjmd = 12
   
3. Cornflakes = 12
   
4. Superdeath = 10
   
5. sucksatciv = 9
   
6. Bing = 0
   

Population

1. Pindicator (IMP) = 119
   
2. Cornflakes = 102
   
3. Mjmd = 99
   
4. sucksatciv = 66
   
5. Superdeath = 52
   
6. Bing = 0
   

Wonders

1. T104 Hanging Gardens (pindicator)
   
2. T110 Great Wall (SucksAtCiv)
   
3. T111 Apostolic Palace (Cornflakes)
   
4. T113 Colossus (Cornflakes)
   
5. T121 Mausoleum of Mausolos (Mjmd)
   
6. T122 Temple of Artemis (Bing)
   
7. T131 University of Sankore (Cornflakes)
   
8. T145 Great Library (Mjmd)
   

Current turn Gold at 100%

1. Mjmd (PRO) = 458
   
2. Pindicator (PRO) = 396
   
3. Cornflakes = 372
   
4. Superdeath (FIN, ORG) = 234
   
5. sucksatciv (ORG) = 188
   
6. Bing (FIN, PRO) = 0
   

Keep in mind that Mjmd is in a golden age right now.

Current turn total maintenance

1. sucksatciv (ORG) = 125
   
2. Superdeath (FIN, ORG) = 126
   
3. Mjmd (PRO) = 220
   
4. Cornflakes = 284
   
5. Pindicator (PRO) = 308
   
6. Bing (FIN, PRO) = 0
   

Current turn maintenance-gold delta

1. Mjmd (PRO) = 238
   
2. Superdeath (FIN, ORG) = 108
   
3. Pindicator (PRO) = 88
   
4. Cornflakes = 88
   
5. sucksatciv (ORG) = 63
   
6. Bing (FIN, PRO) = 0
   

Accumulated actual science

1. Cornflakes = 8775
   
2. Superdeath (FIN, ORG) = 7846
   
3. Mjmd (PRO) = 7203
   
4. sucksatciv (ORG) = 4403
   
5. Pindicator (PRO) = 3861
   
6. Bing (FIN, PRO) = 946
   

The most shocking number here is pindicators, who has fallen behind the pack in an extreme way. Most likely because he has to manage the maintenance of the biggest empire in the game.
But what exactly did the players do with all those beakers. Well fear not here it is:




It should be fairly self explantory. It's all the techs the players have researched so far. The number in front is the turn the players acquired the tech.

Food

Accumulated food towards growth

1. Mjmd = 4188
   
2. Pindicator (IMP) = 3827
   
3. Cornflakes = 3592
   
4. Superdeath = 2216
   
5. sucksatciv (EXP) = 1557
   
6. Bing = 1522
   

Accumulated food kept (Granaries etc.)

1. Mjmd = 3238
   
2. Pindicator (IMP) = 2924
   
3. Cornflakes = 2697
   
4. Superdeath = 1658
   
5. sucksatciv (EXP) = 1070
   
6. Bing = 830
   

Production
Accumulated total production
You will find the unmodified production in parenthesis if it differs. I only show relevant traits here.

1. Cornflakes = 17321 (14308)
   
2. Mjmd (PRO, CRE) = 15065 (12952)
   
3. Pindicator (IMP, PRO) = 14314 (12540)
   
4. Superdeath (ORG) = 9730 (9303)
   
5. sucksatciv (EXP, ORG) = 7509 (7080)
   
6. Bing (PRO) = 4959 (4802)
   

Total unmodified whip production

1. Mjmd = 4590
   
2. Pindicator (IMP) = 4310
   
3. Cornflakes = 3450
   
4. Superdeath = 2630
   
5. Bing = 1110
   
6. sucksatciv (EXP) = 890
   

Total chop production

1. Cornflakes = 1379
   
2. Mjmd = 1072
   
3. Pindicator (IMP) = 1068
   
4. sucksatciv (EXP) = 942
   
5. Superdeath = 828
   
6. Bing = 713
   

Normally I would split up these numbers to their respective modifiers here. But due to a bug I am no longer able to do this. This bug wrote down the production object of the last turn even though it was finished already. I was able to fix that manually in the data for the T100 report. But for the T150 this is just too much work. That bug is already fixed in later versions. Although there seems to be another one that RefSteel noticed. In short the production code is nasty. smile

Financial Bonus
Current turn FIN bonus

1. Mjmd (PRO) = 99
   
2. Pindicator (PRO) = 78
   
3. Superdeath (FIN, ORG) = 40
   
4. Cornflakes = 39
   
5. sucksatciv (ORG) = 34
   
6. Bing (FIN, PRO) = 0
   

Accumulated turn FIN bonus

1. Mjmd (PRO) = 3282
   
2. Pindicator (PRO) = 2651
   
3. Cornflakes = 2011
   
4. Superdeath (FIN, ORG) = 1794
   
5. sucksatciv (ORG) = 1378
   
6. Bing (FIN, PRO) = 570
   

Severity of FIN nerf compared to BtS
Here the comparison for this lighthouse implementation compared to BtS (delta, reduction in percent):

1. Mjmd (PRO) = 1289 (-28.20%)
   
2. Cornflakes = 1261 (-38.54%)
   
3. Pindicator (PRO) = 1108 (-29.48%)
   
4. sucksatciv (ORG) = 916 (-39.93%)
   
5. Superdeath (FIN, ORG) = 875 (-32.78%)
   
6. Bing (FIN, PRO) = 803 (-58.49%)
   

Protective Bonus
Current turn PRO bonus

1. Pindicator (PRO) = 35
   
2. Cornflakes = 33
   
3. Mjmd (PRO) = 11
   
4. Superdeath (FIN, ORG) = 0
   
5. Bing (FIN, PRO) = 0
   
6. sucksatciv (ORG) = 0
   

Accumulated PRO bonus

1. Cornflakes = 1017
   
2. Pindicator (PRO) = 728
   
3. Mjmd (PRO) = 522
   
4. Superdeath (FIN, ORG) = 350
   
5. Bing (FIN, PRO) = 256
   
6. sucksatciv (ORG) = 256
   

Misc
Great people born

1. Cornflakes = 8
   
2. Mjmd = 3
   
3. Pindicator = 2
   
4. Superdeath = 1
   
5. sucksatciv = 1
   
6. Bing = 0
   

I'm tracking a lot more but there is not enough information there to justify an own paragraph. Therefore a little summary here:
Civics
Government: Cornflakes still is in Representation thanks to Pyramids and pindicator is still in Hereditary Rule. SucksAtCiv joined pindicator in T128 and Mjmd in T143
Legal: Cornflakes switched into Bureaucracy in T103. In the last turns people turned to Vassallage (T140 Superdeath, T141 SucksAtCiv, T143 Mjmd)
Labor: All of them are slavers, except for pindicator who made a short jump into Serfdom during his golden age
Economics: Cornflakes just switched into Mercantilism in T150, the rest is in Decentralization
Religion: pindicator remained in Organized Religion. Mjmd joined him in T137. Cornflakes made a short visit to Organized Religion for 7 turns before turning to Theocracy in T111.

War weariness
pindicator may have had 3 turns of unhappiness due to War Weariness in his war against Bing, but only 1 unhappiness.

Comparing traits

The main goal of all this tracking of course is to compare the economic traits related around commerce income or maintenance reduction.




This really is a cottage poor map so far which explains these numbers somewhat. Also a bad map for PRO.

Stay tuned for the T200 report.

[naufragar]

Once again, despite all the participants reporting, I have no idea what's happening in this game. Cornflakes is worried that SAC will "significantly outnumber him" but doesn't show a screenshot of SAC having superiority. (And the power ratio says Cornflakes has more than double SAC's power!  ) So Cornflakes offers SAC a peace to protect himself from SAC and SD (who also has far less power than CF). And then is surprised when SD captures a northern Indian city?

SD for his part mentions "I'm very likely to suicide rush [CF's] cities here soon," again while at a massive power deficit.

Meanwhile Mjmd and Pind seem locked in a death feud, the outcome or even purpose of which seems opaque to me, despite both of them writing a bunch about it.

I don't think I've ever read more about a game and had less understanding of what's going on.     

All I know for sure is that CF with peace time immunity and a huge power disparity is content to take 1 city from SAC while SD gets 3 so far and possibly more while having a fraction of his army. And Mjmd and Pindicator currently hate each other's guts.

[Qgqqqqq]

All I know for sure is that CF with peace time immunity and a huge power disparity is content to take 1 city from SAC while SD gets 3 so far and possibly more while having a fraction of his army.

I also found this very confusing, though I've mostly only read CF's thread. Still, given SD's statements, perhaps it makes sense?

And certainly CF has somehow triangulated the diplomacy game with pind and MJMD so :shrug:

[Ginger*]

My take on the Zulu-American war is that Pin got opportunistic with CF attacking Mjmd then got very indignant when Mjmd didn’t take it lying down.

Honestly if Pin just gave the two cities back he’d probably buy Mjmd off to go against CF. Which feels like an excellent deal. Ofc Pin is on the mindset of “well he never accepted peace so he’s not interested in peace” but Pin never offered anything but white peace which makes very little sense for Mjmd to accept after getting stabbed like that.
Besides we’re in the “border cities aren’t legitimate economic investments” stage of the game anyways

To be fair to SD’s claim of suiciding Cats while at half power, if anyone is comfortable liquidating their entire population to reduce power disparity it is this guy (not that that will win him the game, but it is still possible for him to put on the pain). Nauf, you wrote yourself in your pb59 thread that an attacker can always cause severe damage even if incapable of the overmatch required for outright conquest

I don’t understand Cornflakes’ paranoia about getting stack wiped in SAC’s culture, he still has enforced peace with Mjmd and Pindi and while SD can whip a stack, that would also take a lot of time. this peace (which SAC will probably accept) sacrifices a lot of the winning tempo that CF had and might just give Mjmd and Pin a chance to claw it back if they can put their hot dogs away

[Ginger*]

Again Pindicator bewilders me, he admits that the culture situation makes holding that border untenable, and gets furious with the fait accompli and calls Mjmd a bully. Yes certainly Mjmd is throwing his weight around, but he’s not game-ruining Pin rofl, this isn’t a capital-dive with 2 movers :/
Yes Mjmd is a “bully”, we all are! That’s the whole point of the game!! —“what can I get away with?”
And Pin’s lack of pragmatism might kill his solid chance for victory here.

(Oh btw this is still ofc the war THAT PIN DECLARED  )

Edit: I realize I’ve made a couple posts about this dynamic and I sound like a broken record, so this will probably be the last one. I guess I keep waiting for the lights to go on and experience fresh shock and dissonance when nothing changes

[Amicalola]

Fwiw I agree with you. To my lurker eyes, this reads strongly as a situation of Pindicators own making, and his response has been pretty bewildering.

Although I would also acknowledge that it can be difficult to fully appreciate the nuances as a lurker, so maybe we're missing something. Sometimes I read lurker comments after my games and realise how little information we're really working with.