RB Pitboss #2 - Postgame Discussion Thread

[WilliamLP]

> I think my favorite was a comment that we should have deliberately sandbagged our GNP, so that it would have discouraged the formation of an alliance that we had absolutely no idea existed, involving teams we hadn't even met yet. Umm, OK.

To me, it seems like you are inexperienced, perhaps even slightly naive, about free-for-all multiplayer gaming in general and the meta-gaming that goes on. (This is completely independent of the Civ-specific knowledge where, of course, your team is completely unequaled.)

Managing perception of strength is almost always one of the most important concerns in such games. Anyone who has followed FFA in a game like WC3 or other RTS and watched top players knows this. I am sure that if you play more games (not just Civ) in this style, you won't think that suggestion is absurd anymore.

Many people don't like that this is how such games play out, or may consider it unethical to nearly universally gang up on a player who is way out in front. However, if the goal is to maximize winning percentage, ignoring the fact that other players will see doing so as their best chance to win is to your disadvantage. My sense is that Speaker was very much aware of this fact, insisting on pumping out more military at exactly the right time, and his intuitions were that more dogpile was always coming, which was the main piece of paranoia that gave your team the win.

[Dantski]

One question remains: Would you have managed to survive if Whosit declared war before landing his preats...?

I asked Speaker this a couple of weeks ago and he said they would've been able to deal with it

[scooter]

I asked Speaker this a couple of weeks ago and he said they would've been able to deal with it

Remembering the situation at the time, I think I would agree with them. If he had landed them properly, I DO think they would've done more damage, but India still would've emerged from that as the leader in the game. Once India got Catapults it was pretty much over.

[Speaker]

One question remains: Would you have managed to survive if Whosit declared war before landing his preats...?

Survive? You mean, would we have lost all our cities?

There was a very small chance that you might have taken Fredericksburg, if you have made the perfect tactical moves, and thrown all the Praets and both Holy Rome and Mali's stacks at the city. But it had city walls, 2 great general axes, and a shit ton more axes and archers inside, as well as several Horse Archers heading there. If you had decided to bypass the city and try to move inland, which I thought was pretty likely at the time (since that was the alliance's main offensive "strategy" of the war), you would have bought us the few more turns we needed to get out enough catapults to make it a slaughter.

Sorry, but the attack was doomed from the start, due to poor coordination and stack composition, and if not for some horrible combat luck which cost us 5 Horse Archers at 70% or better odds (which would have then upgrade to shock Horse Archers...), we'd have easily cleaned up all the units in our land before the Praetorians even arrived.

Not to revisit old fights, but ancient era wars are counter productive in an epic game. Yeah, you slow down one team (India, in this case), but you don't put yourself in any sort of long-term position to win the game. The results of this game bare out that analysis. Short, decisive wars which do not delay your expansion and economic growth are the key to MP Civ4.

Live and learn.

Oh and for the record....the presence of Kathlete's horse archers and chariots made my defense 100x harder than any number of axes and praetorians. You can see in our thread the way I needed to position our troops to defend against the two-movers. I just wanted to ease Jowy's mind about Kathlete's participation, and give the Ottomans a bit of credit.

[Speaker]

Dantski could have been a major player, if he had sent his units south instead of north.

[athlete4life10]

I grant that it was my idea, but I could have sworn that I suggested you go around the island, or that I at least pointed out that slaze would see you coming. I could be wrong, though.

LOL yes you did! I was never going to make it in time though.

To paraphrase Tarkin: "[Whosit is] far too trusting."

I knew I was getting the short end of the stick in the war against slaze since I was attacking first, but I was naive enough to believe in two things: 1) Athlete was capable of actually capturing Incan territory; 2) Athlete was going to help me through the end. Whoops.

Well if #1 was true, #2 definitely would have been!

[athlete4life10]

@Slaze,

I haven't read your thread yet, but your game was truly well played. In hindsight Whosit and I never should have declared war on you. Having you whip out all those LB's was enough to slow your economy down we could have been satisfied that we could outtech you. Atleast I should have been happy that I could beat you to Gunpowder and come with Jannisaries!

About the backstab, it would never have happened if I hadn't goofed that post in the techthread. Once I knew they were aware I had no hope of success against them, even with your help. I still naively wanted to believe I could "befriend" them as well so when they gave me the false hope I said sure. Sullla's dead on it was the most immoral thing done in this game (and probably the most you can do in mp civ). Anyways sorry it worked out the way it did...really all my fault. I hope you enjoyed the time you spent with the game though and maybe we'll get to meet again!

Athlete

[Speaker]

Anyone interested in playing a MP Ironman? Preference will be given to all you PB2 scallywags!

http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4053

[Nakor]

Thanks Speaker, I'll keep that in mind. No ancient era wars.
Wars... still need to learn so much....

How about a cat/phants stack, would that work? With some mixed units for defense?

[Speaker]

Thanks Speaker, I'll keep that in mind. No ancient era wars.
Wars... still need to learn so much....

It's not so much that. It's just that pre-catapults, all it takes is a city walls, and you have no chance to take a city, even with overwhelming force. You probably noticed that I defended Gettysburg with mostly archers during that whole time. Hill city with 40 or 60% culture with 6 archers = axes don't take the city. Now, a big stack of Horse Archers defended by some axes and swords....that's a different story. Split your opponents' cities and force them to choose which to defend.

How about a cat/phants stack, would that work? With some mixed units for defense?

Absolutely. Elephants are the most broken unit in the game. Thankfully there was no ivory on our entire map.