[SPOILERS] Team Orgynized: Parkin/Arki/Magno embark on a kinky adventure

[WilliamLP]

With early Granary and slavery we could do heavy chopping. That would help our cause

The trouble with that is that this start needs hunting, fishing, and AH, which is a lot of tech before mining->bw. So we actually might have to be relatively slow to slavery and chops, relative to other teams?

[antisocialmunky]

The sooner you get whipping, the sooner you can be thematic.

[Lord Parkin]

Thanks Plako! Great to have a rare start which makes both Hunting and Fishing relevant early on.

I'm looking forward to Lord Parkin's take on this. It looks like a rare start that may not need Agriculture for a long time.

Indeed, we can pretty much forget about picking an Agriculture civ - that would lead to a significantly slower start. Fishing, Hunting and Mining are the key starting techs here.

Do you even consider settling on the plains hill? I think it's a non-starter?

Not being able to put an early net on the Fish puts you significantly behind all the alternative options in both food and beakers. It would probably be a bad mistake if you didn't know in advance that there was another good resource you'd get by settling there. Worth moving the Scout first just to check though.

Do you go for a Civ like Vikings or Greece with Hunting / Fishing here? Or Fishing / (something else) since hunting is a cheap tech and you have plenty of time to grab it before a worker anyway? Riverside sheep is a really good tile for a FIN leader with the 3C.

I've tested it with Fishing/Mining, Fishing/Hunting and Hunting/Mining. Fishing/Hunting is actually a mistake because you don't need both at the start - better to get the more expensive Mining tech for free and manually research the cheaper tech. So it's then down to Fishing/Mining and Hunting/Mining.

Starting with Fishing/Mining, researching Hunting -> AH -> BW then arbitrary filler techs Mysticism -> Wheel, building Work Boat -> Worker -> partial Warrior -> Worker -> finish Warrior works out as follows at T35:

Starting with Hunting/Mining, researching AH -> Fishing -> BW -> then arbitrary filler tech Mysticism, building Worker -> filler Barracks -> Work Boat -> Worker -> start Warrior looks like this at T35:

Same Hunting/Mining start, except going Fishing -> AH -> BW before arbitrary filler Mysticism, building Worker -> Work Boat -> Worker -> Warrior looks like this at T38 (note 3 turns later):

I'd rank those outcomes pretty clearly in the order presented, with the first option being by far the best out of the three. That implies Fishing/Mining will be the killer starting techs for us. Who are the Fishing/Mining civs?

• Carthage
  
• England
  
• Portugal
  
• Rome

An interesting bunch. Portugal is clearly the worst, but the others aren't too bad. Carthage is decent, even if Numidian Cavalry are a bit awkward. England would be very handy assuming we make it to Rifling. As for Rome... well, I've always kind of wanted an excuse to play with them. (Hey, if we're going to become the #1 world target anyway, why not do it in style... )

Feel free to download the simulated start here and play around with it yourself - see if you can improve on these results. (Note you can WorldBuilder yourself different starting techs, and also remove any forests that spawn since we can't rely on those.)

[Lord Parkin]

Wow. That's a nice start

It's definitely good, especially with Financial... two 5f/3c tiles and one 5f tile. RB maps tend to be a little more generous with starting resources than random maps, but that's okay - gets the game going a bit faster.

My own reading is that it would be quite a below average start, if not starting with fishing.

It's not terrible without a Fishing start, but Fishing definitely speeds it up significantly.

Problems are: no luxuries or strategic resources in sight.

Not really worth worrying about, we can only see 15 land tiles after all. I'm sure there'll be luxuries nearby, and even if not everyone will be in a similar situation.

Also, strategic resources can't be seen at the start, in case you've forgotten.

The river is terrible, it only gives 1 usable freshwater tile if settled in place.

Better than nothing. And I'm sure it's much the same for everyone else, meaning it doesn't really matter too much.

It's a capital tile with a lot of useless water tiles that limit it in the late game. There is no decent plains hill settlement. Three 5-food tiles is adequate but not amazing.

It's got a good early food/hammer output, which is all you need. Could be a potential Moai site later on, depending on the other options. Also, cottaged grassland tiles are still good even without rivers when Financial.

nice placer indeed

I would go for fishing and get 2 working boats, one for the fish and a extra one for early safe exploration

I think we want 2 Workers before we get 2 Work Boats, but that could be something to bear in mind depending on how easy it is for our Scout to explore. If everyone is connected by land, a Scout alone may be quite adequate for exploration.

Looks like a lake W of the desert tile and the grass forests 3N of the desert. Might be on an isthmus.

Could be, but then Plako could also change the map. I'd put money on everyone having a coastal start like us though - we'll be able to tell for sure once everyone settles (through the "land area" demographic).

With early Granary and slavery we could do heavy chopping. That would help our cause

No need for a Granary or Slavery to do heavy chopping, though of course we'll want those in time. I expect we'll have cleared our forests by around T40.

The trouble with that is that this start needs hunting, fishing, and AH, which is a lot of tech before mining->bw. So we actually might have to be relatively slow to slavery and chops, relative to other teams?

Nah, I'd be surprised if other folks didn't have similar starts... everyone will have a number of important techs to get early on. The important thing isn't what exact turn you get to BW, it's what play gets you in the best possible position a dozen or two turns down the road.

The sooner you get whipping, the sooner you can be thematic.

[WilliamLP]

Not really worth worrying about, we can only see 15 land tiles after all. I'm sure there'll be luxuries nearby, and even if not everyone will be in a similar situation.

Also, strategic resources can't be seen at the start, in case you've forgotten.

I think elephants are allowed in this game, or no? I was thinking of stone or marble though. Having none of these is par for the course, but maybe a start that doesn't have a single thing far above average is below average. I hear you though, I'd trust Plako to choose a map where nobody is far ahead of anyone else on turn 0 just by geography.

I played around with your sandbox a bit, played what I think is the same way you did, then tried starting Fishing + Agri, for a theoretical beaker advantage (more for Agri vs Mining start, then more for prereq bonus on AH). It's also not clear to me whether I'd finish the very workboat with 2 hammer overflow, or put that into 2 food. Doing the latter gets bronze on Turn 33:




Growth is a turn behind the other way, but hammers are ahead because the discrete math puts a lot of overflow from the second worker into hammers for the warrior.

I'm looking forward to all the little decisions you're going to make, like whether you actually build this way or go for an earlier settler than this. (E.g. grow to size 4 and finish the warrior than go settler before worker or something). I'm hoping to learn from the analysis that falls out.

Also it's interesting to note for anyone else trying this, that while it looks like it may be better to settle 1N (and if the surrounding bleed doesn't change it may well be, for more forests?) AH actually finishes in time for the worker to improve sheep first, which is a better tile and gives a 1-turn advantage to settling in place.

It would be fun to lurk you if you choose Rome! I'd be afraid to, because of painting a target on myself, and it also forces you to get IW very quickly, right? And then you're at the map's mercy... Still the unit is straight up overpowered and if you get Praets up you basically have free reign to kill someone?

[Lord Parkin]

I think elephants are allowed in this game, or no? I was thinking of stone or marble though. Having none of these is par for the course, but maybe a start that doesn't have a single thing far above average is below average. I hear you though, I'd trust Plako to choose a map where nobody is far ahead of anyone else on turn 0 just by geography.

Yeah, I'd be surprised if there were significant differences between the starting locations. Elephants are allowed, so I presume Ivory will be distributed with that in mind.

I played around with your sandbox a bit, played what I think is the same way you did, then tried starting Fishing + Agri, for a theoretical beaker advantage (more for Agri vs Mining start, then more for prereq bonus on AH). It's also not clear to me whether I'd finish the very workboat with 2 hammer overflow, or put that into 2 food. Doing the latter gets bronze on Turn 33:

I didn't list my tile rearrangements, but the Work Boat was built with the plains-forest-hill, and other tiles were switched as food resources became available. I finished the Work Boat with 2 hammer overflow, though perhaps could be better to do the food. Hunting came in on T6, AH on T17, Bronze Working on T28, Mysticism on T33. So definitely a slower start with Agri rather than Mining.

I'm looking forward to all the little decisions you're going to make, like whether you actually build this way or go for an earlier settler than this. (E.g. grow to size 4 and finish the warrior than go settler before worker or something). I'm hoping to learn from the analysis that falls out.

Could do an earlier Settler, although my gut feeling is that double Worker is the stronger opening with this terrain (and with the timing of BW).

Also it's interesting to note for anyone else trying this, that while it looks like it may be better to settle 1N (and if the surrounding bleed doesn't change it may well be, for more forests?) AH actually finishes in time for the worker to improve sheep first, which is a better tile and gives a 1-turn advantage to settling in place.

Plus it's irritating to lose the health bonus... but if the Scout revealed something good it could be worth shifting. I suspect Plako will try to arrange the map so that moving the capital blindly 1-2 tiles won't grant any bonus resources, though. Or at least that's how I'd do it.

It would be fun to lurk you if you choose Rome! I'd be afraid to, because of painting a target on myself, and it also forces you to get IW very quickly, right? And then you're at the map's mercy... Still the unit is straight up overpowered and if you get Praets up you basically have free reign to kill someone?

I'm not sure it'd be the wisest pick... might make it easier for the world to unite against the team with the big scary UU. It also probably comes a tad early for militarization if we have decent room to expand. But it'd certainly be fun and different - I've never played Rome in a Pitboss before.

[Lord Parkin]

1. Team Eagles & Condors - Kurumi / HBHR (with Oxyphenbutazone) - Pacal II
2. Team Dinosaurs - Whiteye / Raptorous
3. Team Master and Margarita - Slaze / Maga_R (with Jovan Kukic dedlurking)
4. Bowsling / Aivoturso
5. Team Orgynized - Lord Parkin / Arkipeller / Magno_uy (with WilliamLP dedlurking and Dp101)
6. Team Blame Caledorn - YossarianLives / Caledorn (with Scooter, Old Harry and Cheater Hater dedlurking)
7. Team Care Bears - Yuufo / Bisons
8. Dick76 / DMOC
9. Team My Little Marathon Cannibal Pony - Classical_Hero / Halvgud
10. Barteq / Geo (with Harami dedlurking)
11. Barteq / Geo (with Harami dedlurking)
12. Team My Little Marathon Cannibal Pony - Classical_Hero / Halvgud
13. Dick76 / DMOC
14. Team Care Bears - Yuufo / Bisons
15. Team Blame Caledorn - YossarianLives / Caledorn (with Scooter, Old Harry and Cheater Hater dedlurking)
16. Team Orgynized - Lord Parkin / Arkipeller / Magno_uy (with WilliamLP dedlurking and Dp101)
17. Bowsling / Aivoturso
18. Team Master and Margarita - Slaze / Maga_R (with Jovan Kukic dedlurking)
19. Team Dinosaurs - Whiteye / Raptorous
20. Team Eagles & Condors - Kurumi / HBHR (with Oxyphenbutazone)

The snake pick has begun! Not a surprise that Pacal went first - I'm betting on seeing Willem drop next.

[WilliamLP]

The snake pick has begun! Not a surprise that Pacal went first - I'm betting on seeing Willem drop next.

I'll bet India just to be a contrarian. Or maybe Boudica.

[Lord Parkin]

1. Team Eagles & Condors - Kurumi / HBHR (with Oxyphenbutazone) - Pacal II
2. Team Dinosaurs - Whiteye / Raptorous - Darius
3. Team Master and Margarita - Slaze / Maga_R (with Jovan Kukic dedlurking)
4. Bowsling / Aivoturso
5. Team Orgynized - Lord Parkin / Arkipeller / Magno_uy (with WilliamLP dedlurking and Dp101)
6. Team Blame Caledorn - YossarianLives / Caledorn (with Scooter, Old Harry and Cheater Hater dedlurking)
7. Team Care Bears - Yuufo / Bisons
8. Dick76 / DMOC
9. Team My Little Marathon Cannibal Pony - Classical_Hero / Halvgud
10. Barteq / Geo (with Harami dedlurking)
11. Barteq / Geo (with Harami dedlurking)
12. Team My Little Marathon Cannibal Pony - Classical_Hero / Halvgud
13. Dick76 / DMOC
14. Team Care Bears - Yuufo / Bisons
15. Team Blame Caledorn - YossarianLives / Caledorn (with Scooter, Old Harry and Cheater Hater dedlurking)
16. Team Orgynized - Lord Parkin / Arkipeller / Magno_uy (with WilliamLP dedlurking and Dp101)
17. Bowsling / Aivoturso
18. Team Master and Margarita - Slaze / Maga_R (with Jovan Kukic dedlurking)
19. Team Dinosaurs - Whiteye / Raptorous
20. Team Eagles & Condors - Kurumi / HBHR (with Oxyphenbutazone)

Darn... Darius. Okay, I still bet Willem will drop before India.

[Arkipeller]

1. Team Eagles & Condors - Kurumi / HBHR (with Oxyphenbutazone) - Pacal II
2. Team Dinosaurs - Whiteye / Raptorous - Darius
3. Team Master and Margarita - Slaze / Maga_R (with Jovan Kukic dedlurking)
4. Bowsling / Aivoturso
5. Team Orgynized - Lord Parkin / Arkipeller / Magno_uy (with WilliamLP dedlurking and Dp101)
6. Team Blame Caledorn - YossarianLives / Caledorn (with Scooter, Old Harry and Cheater Hater dedlurking)
7. Team Care Bears - Yuufo / Bisons
8. Dick76 / DMOC
9. Team My Little Marathon Cannibal Pony - Classical_Hero / Halvgud
10. Barteq / Geo (with Harami dedlurking)
11. Barteq / Geo (with Harami dedlurking)
12. Team My Little Marathon Cannibal Pony - Classical_Hero / Halvgud
13. Dick76 / DMOC
14. Team Care Bears - Yuufo / Bisons
15. Team Blame Caledorn - YossarianLives / Caledorn (with Scooter, Old Harry and Cheater Hater dedlurking)
16. Team Orgynized - Lord Parkin / Arkipeller / Magno_uy (with WilliamLP dedlurking and Dp101)
17. Bowsling / Aivoturso
18. Team Master and Margarita - Slaze / Maga_R (with Jovan Kukic dedlurking)
19. Team Dinosaurs - Whiteye / Raptorous
20. Team Eagles & Condors - Kurumi / HBHR (with Oxyphenbutazone)

Darn... Darius. Okay, I still bet Willem will drop before India.

So... we need to find 3 leaders which we could consider playing and put them in order from most to least interresting. I kind of like Huyana Capac - Idea from earlier. Fin/Ind ain't bad