Yeah, lvl 1 summons really shouldn't have any mana affinity IMO. I'd probably go 2S, no affinity, so fireball spectres are 2S/2M, hosts, pitbeasts are 3S/1M, each having varying extra bonuses.
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EitB 0011 Wishlist/Discussion
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I am very happy to remove affinity from Lesser spectres.
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.
Oh!
Most of the mana given out to palaces makes sense, works thematically and balances well. However, nature mana is almost obnoxiously common at present (average of 3 instances, nature has 5), and also sucks. Proposal: Remove nature mana from the Elohim and Hippus palaces. While I can see the reasoning, it doesn't work nearly as well for them as for the others, and its mostly used as just a catch all. The replacements could be one of a few, but my thought is Air and Spirit respectively. Thoughts? Also another thing I don't think I ever mentioned in thread or changelogs: (non-summoned) mistforms should now spawn with animal AI, so shouldn't be a gamekiller anymore.
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.
I've been meaning to post here for some time now; looks like I'm too late for EitB 0011.
My 0012 wishlist, then: LAIRS: A while back, I proposed that lair popping have a level requirement, possibly using the existing code for Brigit. It would look something like this: * Any military unit can explore Graveyards and Shipwrecks. (No Workboats!) * Only Level 2+ units can explore Barrows and Ruins. (2XP minimum) * Only Level 3+ units can explore Goblin Forts and Dungeons. (4/5XP minimum) * Only Level 4+ units can explore Unique Features. (8/10XP minimum) It would stop game-breaking early exploration without removing lairs altogether or adding clunky guardians. CIVICS: Too many civics are clumped at Education and Trade. Meanwhile, Caste System is nearly useless at Feudalism; ditto, Liberty at Mercantilism. Suggestions: * Conquest moves back to Warfare. * Overcouncil moves to Medicine. Undercouncil moves to Poisons. It's thematic and adds value to lesser branches of the tech tree. Civic upkeep can be reduced to "None" to compensate for the extra beaker investment. * Caste System moves to Mind Stapling and requires Octopus Overlords. It gives OO a unique civic and an economic dimension (beyond questionable Asylums). * Slavery moves to Masonry. Liberty moves to Philosophy. An early Liberty would be interesting: cheap culture, without the mandatory race for Drama. If that's too powerful, it could become a Labour civic, competing against the likes of Apprenticeship/Slavery/Caste System/Military State instead of weaksauce Religion/Pacifism/Nationalism. GOLEMS: I really like the idea of enabling Light and Heavy promotions for Golems via buildings: Pallens Engine for Light and Alduria Chamber for Heavy. Air Mana is fine for Light, but Earth Mana is pretty pointless for Heavy, since it comes free from the palace. Air/Water is better. Or Sun/Nature, so that they unlock at different techs, Divination/Alteration. SUMMONS: I don't think adding early mobile summons for Summoner is a good idea. Mass summons are tough enough to deal with at Sorcery. What about free Metamagic I promotions for Arcane units (along with Spell Extension I) instead? It would provide a huge scouting edge at KotE, but not an immediate military edge. It would make the Amurites less unique, though. But even +1 beaker/city or +10% beakers is better than even more cheap summons. On a related note, I think +1 or +2 gold/turn unit upkeep for Mages should be considered to better balance summon spam. (Something similar was used for Spies in vanilla Civ.) Wizards and Illusionists, as UU, may be exempted. MANA: There are many options for changing palace mana. I like: Hippus: Air/Nature/Horse --> Air/Shadow/Horse Mercurian: Earth/Life/Iron --> Sun/Life/Iron Sidar: Enchantment/Shadow/Spirit --> Mind/Shadow/Spirit That fits the lore and balances the mana nicely: 4 instances of each, except Spirit (5), Sun (3), and Ice/Death/Entropy/Meta (1). The Elohim can keep their mana, I think, because Water and Spirit have early game utility and the Elohim can build a different palace later. Plus, Air mana is pretty common already. LEADERS: I don't like most of the recent changes to leader traits, to be honest. Especially when they duplicate existing combinations. * Varn: SPI/CRE/ADA --> SPI/CHA/ADA Arendel has SPI/CRE covered. And CRE is a strong early game trait for an already strong leader. Plus, CHA has some early game utility with bonus happiness and claiming that second promotion at 4XP. * Os-Gabella: SPI/CHA --> SPI/SUM The old trait combo isn't *that* anti-synergy. It's focus is cheap Planar Gates plus AV Ritualists and Tar Demons, with limited arcane support. SPI is also inherently more flexible than ARC. It might not be as strong as ARC/SUM, but it's still viable. * Cassiel: PHI/ORG/ADA --> PHI/CRE/ADA Cassiel cries out for CRE, especially as leader of an Agnostic civ. ORG is basically useless for the early game: you won't be building the cheaper buildings/Command Posts yet and you won't have any civic upkeep to speak of. * Basium: AGG/RAI/ING --> AGG/SPI/ING Tasunke has AGG/RAI covered. Plus, SPI better fits the lore (angels lead large armies of the faithful, not raiding parties) and is essential for late-game civ. * Hannah: FIN/RAI/INS --> FIN/RAI/ING/INS I'm not sure about this, but I think two random traits are generally worse than Falamar's EXP/CHA. Perpentach needs *three* random traits to shine: ARC/CHA/CRE/INS. * Volanna: AGG/CRE --> AGG/ING Better balance with the other Svart leaders, as others have said. Is there any appetite for adding more leaders using existing artwork from the scenarios? (August 20th, 2014, 02:47)Azoth Wrote: LAIRS: A while back, I proposed that lair popping have a level requirement, possibly using the existing code for Brigit. It would look something like this: I like this proposal. Quote:* Conquest moves back to Warfare. In favor. I'd also then move Military State to Military Strategy, to prevent Warfare from unlocking two civics. Quote:* Overcouncil moves to Medicine. Undercouncil moves to Poisons. Ooh... I like this idea. I'd also like to see Medicine get a price cut (bringing it to the same cost as Poisons, since it's generally a lot less useful). Infirmaries could use a price cut, too. Quote:* Caste System moves to Mind Stapling and requires Octopus Overlords. Used to be that OO had Slavery as a unique civic. That seems a better fit to me. One problem with removing Caste System from Feudalism is that it makes it even less appealing to research an expensive late-game tech. I'd rather handle the issue by either boosting the civic, cutting the price of the tech, or some combination of the two. Same feeling on Liberty. Quote:but Earth Mana is pretty pointless for Heavy, since it comes free from the palace. Ah, good point. Water doesn't make much sense to me, though. Could be "fixed" by changing palace mana... Quote:SUMMONS: I don't think adding early mobile summons for Summoner is a good idea. Mass summons are tough enough to deal with at Sorcery. What about free Metamagic I promotions for Arcane units (along with Spell Extension I) instead? It would provide a huge scouting edge at KotE, but not an immediate military edge. It would make the Amurites less unique, though. But even +1 beaker/city or +10% beakers is better than even more cheap summons. I think all these things are too strong. Why does Summoner need to be boosted more, anyway? It's fine if some traits are weaker than others, or more situational. Summoner's not even on the list of traits that Adaptive leaders can swap to. Quote:MANA: There are many options for changing palace mana. I'd prefer to leave this alone, for the most part. Unless there's a specific problem being addressed, why make changes? Quote:* Os-Gabella: SPI/CHA --> SPI/SUM It seems a bit strange to make Summoner give cheaper Planar Gates and then give it to two different Sheaim leaders. That just singles out Averax as the one who's slow to build Gates. CHA doesn't make much sense to me for Os-Gabella, but I see the point about SUM. Can't say that any other traits make more sense to me than CHA, though. Quote:* Cassiel: PHI/ORG/ADA --> PHI/CRE/ADA Strongly disagree here. Cassiel could really benefit from CRE, but that doesn't suggest to me that he should get it: Agnostic is supposed to be a big penalty and to force you to find other ways to get culture. Give him CRE for the first 70 turns and he can just ignore it. Quote:* Basium: AGG/RAI/ING --> AGG/SPI/ING Disagree here too. The Mercurians come to Erebus to bust heads. Basium isn't a leader of the faithful, he's an angel rebelling against the gods who also has very little regard for human life. Lore-wise, SPI seems wrong. And gameplay-wise, RAI is much more useful for late-game warfare. Especially since Angels can't be hasted. Quote:* Hannah: FIN/RAI/INS --> FIN/RAI/ING/INS I don't like giving Hannah INS, especially with 3 traits. That just makes her essentially identical to Perpentach, as soon as the traits swap. (August 20th, 2014, 06:56)HidingKneel Wrote: In favor. I'd also then move Military State to Military Strategy, to prevent Warfare from unlocking two civics. Oh, yeah. I forgot to put that in. (August 20th, 2014, 06:56)HidingKneel Wrote: Used to be that OO had Slavery as a unique civic. That seems a better fit to me. I dunno. Slavery doesn't seem to have any necessary connection with OO: it feels like the natural civic for the Calabim, Balseraph, Doviello, etc., regardless of religion, not to mention complementary with AV and StW. Caste System, whereby the underlings/drones are organized in a hierarchy and specialized for various functions, seems more appropriate for a technology like Mind Stapling. More broadly, I can't see Feudalism ever being worthwhile for anyone other than the Calabim. At that point in the game, you don't want to spend economy for more economy (Caste System), you want economy to go directly into military or a win condition. Maybe if it was a prerequisite for other late game technologies (not only Warhorses, but also Mithril Working, and more), it would be worthwhile. But I think you're better off leaving it as basically a dead-end Calabim-only tech, and moving Caste System elsewhere. (August 20th, 2014, 06:56)HidingKneel Wrote: Same feeling on Liberty. Well, first, Liberty is currently unlocked at Mercantilism (I think?), which is a strange choice, not least because it also unlocks... Mercantilism. And its only purpose in the late game is to speed up a Culture or Domination win. And it seems like every PBEM here turns into a race for Drama once the worker techs have been researched. So there are advantages to early Liberty. If it's too strong for Philosophy, I'd weaken the civic, not delay it. Maybe with a bigger war weariness malus, reduced military production, or even -1 XP for newly produced units. (August 20th, 2014, 06:56)HidingKneel Wrote: Ah, good point. Water doesn't make much sense to me, though. Could be "fixed" by changing palace mana... Hmm. Earth mana is pretty iconic for dwarves. Also, I'm not sure the mana for all three golem buildings should be available at Elementalism. (August 20th, 2014, 06:56)HidingKneel Wrote: I think all these things are too strong. Why does Summoner need to be boosted more, anyway? It's fine if some traits are weaker than others, or more situational. Summoner's not even on the list of traits that Adaptive leaders can swap to. I think the argument is that Summoner currently offers no benefits until Sorcery (except for the Sheaim). In retrospect, Metamagic I + Spell Extension I is probably too strong. Maybe just Spell Extension I, then? Definitely no cheap early summons, though. (August 20th, 2014, 06:56)HidingKneel Wrote: It seems a bit strange to make Summoner give cheaper Planar Gates and then give it to two different Sheaim leaders. That just singles out Averax as the one who's slow to build Gates. Well, Sheaim have three things going for them. Zombies, Planar Gates, Sundered. Averax gets Aggressive Zombies, Expansive Settlers for Copper, and ignores barbarians. Tebryn gets cheap Gates and Arcane Sundered Mages and Witches. SPI/CHA Gabella gets what, exactly? At least SPI/SUM Gabella gets cheap Gates that she can take in a different direction. Averax doesn't need SUM; he's pure rush. Though I suppose EXP/SUM/BAR wouldn't be half-bad for Averax. (August 20th, 2014, 06:56)HidingKneel Wrote: Strongly disagree here. Cassiel could really benefit from CRE, but that doesn't suggest to me that he should get it: Agnostic is supposed to be a big penalty and to force you to find other ways to get culture. Give him CRE for the first 70 turns and he can just ignore it. Well, the thing is that Cassiel and the Grigori are pretty under-used. And ORG does nothing for them for the first 70 turns. How about: Cassiel: PHI/ORG/ADA --> PHI/CHA/ADA Einion: PHI/CHA --> PHI/ORG Ethne: CRE/ORG --> CRE/CHA (August 20th, 2014, 06:56)HidingKneel Wrote: I don't like giving Hannah INS, especially with 3 traits. That just makes her essentially identical to Perpentach, as soon as the traits swap. OK, yeah. There are other options for Hannah. FIN/RAI/ING. Or SPI/RAI. Or give her a new mechanic. Mutated. Whereby all of her units start Mutated, as in the scenario. FIN/MUT. It may be a better fit for Furia, though.
Lots of really good discussion.
A couple points- * Feudalism in vanilla FFH is moderately more attractive because it unlocks the Royal Guard for anyone running Aristocracy, the earliest national units you can unlock. They now require the Order though because their vanilla implementation was just another boost to the Calabim, who really didn't need one. Perhaps something could be done with them? Maybe simply prohibit the Calabim from building them, give them a bit of a strength boost and then remove the Order & civic requirements. * Hannah starts with only two real traits, but Insane will give her three after the first switch. (August 20th, 2014, 18:22)Azoth Wrote: More broadly, I can't see Feudalism ever being worthwhile for anyone other than the Calabim. This is the point, I think, more than that Caste System should be available earlier. Quote: But I think you're better off leaving it as basically a dead-end Calabim-only tech, and moving Caste System elsewhere. I'd rather it was a tech that could be situationally useful for anyone. Don't want to make it cheap because that boosts the Calabim, who definitely don't need a boost. But improving the Caste System civic so that it made Feudalism more tempting seems reasonable to me. Then again, I think you made a good case that it would be thematic at Mind Stapling. (August 20th, 2014, 06:56)HidingKneel Wrote: Hmm. Earth mana is pretty iconic for dwarves. Also, I'm not sure the mana for all three golem buildings should be available at Elementalism. Yeah, they probably shouldn't lose their Earth Mana. Also I'd rather add buildings for the Luchuirp, not replace the ones that already exist. So keep uses for Shadow/Sun/Fire. Maybe the Light or Heavy promotion could require Body mana instead? (To potentially have a use for every mana tech?) I could think of other promotions that would fit there too... like Body mana could enable a building that lets your golems start with March. Quote:I think the argument is that Summoner currently offers no benefits until Sorcery (except for the Sheaim). In retrospect, Metamagic I + Spell Extension I is probably too strong. Maybe just Spell Extension I, then? Definitely no cheap early summons, though. Well, if we give Keelyn back the ability to summon two-turn puppets (but block them from getting two-turn summons), then she gets a lot of benefit from it, too. Summoner/Spell Extension I is already a huge boost to Adepts with Death mana, so Tebryn and Hyborem are covered. That just leaves out Rivanna, but the Svarts are supposed to have lousy traits. (August 20th, 2014, 06:56)HidingKneel Wrote: Well, Sheaim have three things going for them. Zombies, Planar Gates, Sundered. Averax gets Aggressive Zombies, Expansive Settlers for Copper, and ignores barbarians. Tebryn gets cheap Gates and Arcane Sundered Mages and Witches. SPI/CHA Gabella gets what, exactly? Two economic traits? Should appeal to players who want to build a big empire before destroying the world  .I'd definitely prefer SPI/CHA to ARC/SUM, myself. And if it seems underpowered you could make her an even better builder with SPI/PHI (though that sounds too good to me). (August 20th, 2014, 06:56)HidingKneel Wrote: Well, the thing is that Cassiel and the Grigori are pretty under-used. And ORG does nothing for them for the first 70 turns. How about: Didn't Cassiel used to be IND? Why not PHI/IND? (Seems a better thematic fit than ORG, and useful from turn 0.) (August 19th, 2014, 03:25)Qgqqqqq Wrote: • Unit Change: Axeman lose Mithril Weapons (NOTE: Pyre Zombies/Chaos Marauders still use Mithril Weapons (Deliberate)) I don't really get this change from 0011. Yes, Mithril Axemen are cost efficient, but the tech path to Mithril is expensive (and a gamble, really, since it's countered by Rust) and the only other non-National units to benefit from it are pricey Champions and already overused Chariots. (Plus Mercenaries, for one player.) I mean, it'll just push more players to the summons and collateral of the arcane and religious branches, right? Especially since the higher-end religious techs just got a price cut... (August 20th, 2014, 19:41)HidingKneel Wrote: Yeah, they probably shouldn't lose their Earth Mana. Well, I dunno how much brand new content and art we are willing to add. And the existing buildings are only marginally useful; we wouldn't be replacing them so much as improving them. It's the simplest solution: leave the Pallens Engine as is, just swap the bonus from Perfect Sight to Light. Ditto the Alduria Chamber, swap the bonus from Invisible to Heavy, and maybe change the mana from Shadow to Entropy. March would be an interesting promotion for golems, but instead of a new building in the Arcane line, maybe an Infirmary UU at Medicine would be better? (August 20th, 2014, 19:41)HidingKneel Wrote: Well, if we give Keelyn back the ability to summon two-turn puppets (but block them from getting two-turn summons), Sold. (August 20th, 2014, 19:41)HidingKneel Wrote: Two economic traits? Should appeal to players who want to build a big empire before destroying the world Well, yes, there is that. It's just that - I mean, do we really want to give Os-Gabella the traits previously attached to Varn Gosam? What do you think of PHI/SUM? (August 20th, 2014, 19:41)HidingKneel Wrote: Didn't Cassiel used to be IND? Why not PHI/IND? (Seems a better thematic fit than ORG, and useful from turn 0.) PHI/IND would be fine, except we've given that to Sandalphon, and with so many trait combos still unusued, I'd rather not double up. Either CRE or CHA would be my pick. Moving along, more ideas for 0012, not so much for balance, but wouldn't-this-be-neat: * Wolf Pens provide +2XP to Recon units. * Gorillas (barbarian and captured) have the Taunt spell, just like Balseraph Harlequins. * Barbarian leaders suffer -50% culture instead of -10% research. |
