As a French person I feel like it's my duty to explain strikes to you. - AdrienIer

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Nothing like the Prodigal Sons: The Odd Couple actually play as themselves.

The thing is, I've ranted about people who can't win "throwing the game" to one or other of the leaders before, so I think that's why I particularly resent the implication. If you look at the last game Noble and I played together, we ended up ending the game because of one of the players actions in this regard. But that's the thing - and I think this is what I want everyone to understand - I don't care who wins the game if its not us. Sure, in terms of the game, Seven has been a good friend to us while Mike and Gavagai have been irritating to varying degrees. But if either of them win, god bless 'em. And hell, if Mike hadn't razed the barb city, scouted us with impunity and left his border cities poorly defended even with the fact that his unit-naming, login-gaming ass is on mine and Noble's last nerve, we'd probably just keep on keeping on. As you'll see when I do my next update, we've largely rescued the economy. While certainly we can't touch the leaders (economic leaders are Mike >> Goreripper >> Gavagai, as best we can tell) we're in improving position to be sure. But the bottom line is he WILL attack us and he HAS left us an opening. Do I think we can march on and take his cap or something? Fuck no. Do I think there's a possibility we'll regret losing those HAs for defense? Yes. But I mean - you've got to do something. If I've learned anything in my MP games here its that we don't challenge people to succeed in all phases often enough if they're succeeding in tech. As Pindicator notes, just researching something isn't a magic tonic to world domination, you have build enough of the units and stay safe long enough to mount the credible force. What we're trying to do is make that last part harder.

Anyway, there's still a decided possibility he scrambles enough stuff together and obliterates our stack, which will eventually hasten our demise. If so, well then he's a worthy leader. And if not, the castle was going to come crumbling down eventually anyway.
I've got some dirt on my shoulder, can you brush it off for me?
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Well we could always gift our next three great people to Seven. wink
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Handicapping the upcoming fight.

[Image: glass%20joe.jpg]

Wait, he's not fighting. Retire to AI!!

I hope he doesn't regret bowing out in three days, but I do hope his batteries get recharged and RL situation/happiness improves soon. alright
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I did use Little Mac as avatar here once upon a time. lol
I've got some dirt on my shoulder, can you brush it off for me?
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Little Mac vs Glass Joe - Round One FIGHT:

Green HA vs. C1 Chariot @ 79.3% = WIN (down to 1.96/6)
Green HA vs Green Spear @ 4.1% = LOSS (spear @3.4)
Green HA vs Green Spear @ 4.1% = LOSS (other spear @3.4)
C1/Shock HA vs 3.4 Spear @ 36.2% = WIN!!! (3.6/6, up to 10xp)
Green HA vs 3.4 Spear @ 9.5% = LOSS (did no damage) frown
C1 HA vs 3.4 Spear @ 20% = WITHDRAW (spear @2.1)
C1/Shock HA vs. 2.1 Spear @ 86% = WIN (HA down to 4/7)




What followed was the most stamina-sapping chat of my entire life this game the last few weeks. We ultimately decided to raze Caen, which was our original intent but we had changed our minds to keep it at the beginning of the turn followed by Noble convincing me we had to raze all of his cities because we couldn't hope to defend them in their current placement. This was extraordinarily disheartening to me because I had gotten my hopes up, so you don't get a full report other than to say barring a miracle, Le Havre will fall next turn.

I might post the chatlog just so you all can share what it feels like to have your soul sucked out through your ear.
I've got some dirt on my shoulder, can you brush it off for me?
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Hey, I am not some ear dementor. I take offense to that.
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Find solace in that you killed 3 spears at a cost of only 3 HA
Suffer Game Sicko
Dodo Tier Player
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It was only two spears. The main issue was the river, I'm pretty annoyed that we spent so many units.
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Here's the log. Be forewarned, it is insanely long.

Quote:Gaspar:we'll have to discuss how we're going to handle things now
like maybe we keep rather than raze?
NobleHelium:i don't think it makes sense to do that
Gaspar:mikes not that good
NobleHelium:caen just doesn't work with our existing cities
Gaspar:but mike to yuri is a huge dropoff
NobleHelium:well yuris is currently in a situation where he doesn't have to make many decisions yet
so his skill is not as much of a factor
hmm
i suppose we could ask for some cities instead of trying to take them
Gaspar:doesnt hurt
NobleHelium:well the main issue is that we'd be stuck with their placements
Gaspar:eh, for the saved units etc you can live with that
NobleHelium:well i am very concerned about future defensibility
Gaspar:sure
but much less so with yuris at the helm
mostly because i just dont think hes inclined to be aggressive
NobleHelium:disagree
he's definitely inclined to recover lost cities
Gaspar:i think we offer peace for caen and nancy
and he declines
then we hit le havre before nancy
NobleHelium:well we can't do that because we're supposed to raze caen this turn
and i really don't think having nancy and caen without le havre is a good position to be in
Gaspar:ill wait til im logged in to think about this
the visual will help
i think the main question
is if we manage to raze all 3
how fast can we get the area resettled
i think we might need to swap to some settlers
NobleHelium:well we only need a blocker city, no?
the spot SE of le havre
Gaspar:yeah, thats the key one
i guess its a question of how quickly we get peace
if he takes peace after a few razes
we'll want to get at least a replacement lake city settled quickly as well
so he doesnt settle something else in the area and reactivate culture
Gaspar:k, ill log in
$10 bucks says we have an annoying diplo window and ill have to ask someone to unpause
NobleHelium:yeah i thought about that when i asked seven to pause
but i'm sure he's still around if we need it
Gaspar:it feels like its been a week since we last played
but its only been a couple days
NobleHelium:it's been like three days
yesterday was wasted
the day before mike refused to play
so it's been roughly 72 hours
Gaspar:nope
no diplo window
wetbandit fired a GA
yeah
yuri whipped all the cities we can see
NobleHelium:any civic switches
?
Gaspar:wetbandit to HR/CS
NobleHelium:he whipped 4 cities
Gaspar:well
all 5 cities have less pop than they had at beginning of turn
NobleHelium:well he could have starved one
are you sure those signs aren't one turn out of date
Gaspar:i made a point of updating them right after the turn rolled
ah
i was misreading
he didnt whip nancy
NobleHelium:where's his chariot
Gaspar:still in bay
scout is on the corn
NobleHelium:so...if we declare war it teleports 2SW and we run it over? lol
is seven still neg on gpt?
Gaspar:
0
not that there was any doubt
but mike took nat
NobleHelium:so
what are we doing about mike's cities
now that we see the map
Gaspar:alright
lets just play devils advocate for a second
and say we were going to keep them all
NobleHelium:ok
how would you plant new cities
to complement the existing ones
Gaspar:thats what I was examining
I think one in the south, SE of the ruins
and i guess in the North, at the only legal tile that gets fish
yes
NobleHelium:
what?
Gaspar:
the only legal tile to plant a city if we kept nancy
and get the fish
NobleHelium:
i am talking about SSE of the ruins
that is water
Gaspar:
yes
im talking about both
NobleHelium:oh
SE of the ruins gets the clam offshore huh
Gaspar: and then finally SW of gold
yes
NobleHelium:well i forgot about that
so that is not bad actually
well clearly we should have declared last turn and asked for all three cities then :P
Gaspar:the thing is
our dotmap is better
but this dotmap is workable
NobleHelium:well i agree that one is workable
but how do we go about it now
do we keep caen and assume we can take all three cities
which imo is still a risky assumption
Gaspar:I think we dec and see whats in caen
thats certainly a factor
if he has, say 4 spears there
NobleHelium:i am 99% sure he has 3 spears there
Gaspar:we're not getting all 3 cities probably
NobleHelium:we could also move the chariot to defog it before declaring
would mean that it'll be almost out of movement after being teleported
but most likely we'd get teleported to southeast of nancy
Gaspar:yeah, most likely
i think it basically boils down to this
if we think we can get all 3 cities
i think its worth keeping them to save on the settlers
if we dont
then we should raze and replant
not to mention whatever infra comes along
which wont be much, i assume, since none of them are that old
NobleHelium:ok so how do we determine
whether we can get all 3 cities or not
Gaspar:how much we lose taking caen?
NobleHelium:le havre is pretty old actually
ok so do we move the scouting chariot before declaring or not?
Gaspar:well
if we dont
it probably goes 3S of current location?
NobleHelium:possibly
i don't really know for sure
Gaspar:i mean the ideal situation
NobleHelium:if it does, is that desirable or not?
Gaspar:would be for us to not use any movement
and have it land on that forest
because then we could duck in, check nancys garrison
if its just an axe, maybe take it
NobleHelium:well if we declare, it goes 3S, we could still move onto the hill to scout nancy
Gaspar:else, duck out
NobleHelium:er
to scout caen
Gaspar:im less concerned about scouting caen
because i dont think there is a possible # of units in there
that we wouldn't attack
NobleHelium:ok if we don't want to scout caen then never mind
then i think we move the chariot into le havre
and declare
Gaspar:would you agree with that statement?
NobleHelium:WAIT
yes i agree
Gaspar:i mean i think 5 spears
is the number where id think about it
and theres no way there are 5 spears there
NobleHelium:anyway
we shouild move the chariot 1NE
and then declare
that gives us maximal chance
that we land on the forest
Gaspar:ok, i agree with that
NobleHelium:and we still have enough movement to attack nancy
now
before we do that
do we want to build the road such that his teleporting chariot can't land on that tile
or do we want to declare before and possibly have him land there, then run him over with an HA
benefits of latter is
1) easy kill
Gaspar:i feel like we want the xp/dead unit, yes?
NobleHelium:2) that HA loses a full turn of movement and will lag behind the stack that hasn't attacked, but he would be able to get on the stack of survivors outside caen
now if we build the road
then declare
and his chariot teleports to the tile 1NW of the road
then we'd be able to kill it with an HA and still get onto the forest
yeah i think we build the road and then declare
well
i guess it's also possible
that he might land on the forest
east of the rice
Gaspar:yeah
NobleHelium:i mean intuitively
it should be the other tile
since it's closer to his cities in general
Gaspar:though i do believe it errs towards your home
though this is toroidal
and we know civ has no fucking idea what to do with that
NobleHelium:the general idea
is that it teleports towards your nearest city
both tiles are equidistant from caen
ok
how about this
we declare
and kill it with the trailing HA
that's the farthest tile it can go to anyways
Gaspar:that works
NobleHelium:ok
so move chariot 1NE, then dow?
Gaspar:ok
win!
NobleHelium:well actually we can kill the chariot with the spear in bay
Gaspar:chariot landed on forest
NobleHelium:so nm lol
Gaspar:WITH 2 WORKERS NE OF IT
NW
NobleHelium:yeah NE of it in the water!
well
Gaspar:i hate you
NobleHelium:that is actually semi bad news
because it means we can't attack the city
Gaspar:yeah
but 2 workers
NobleHelium:well we'd need to be able to keep the workers too
Gaspar:probably can't keep them
NobleHelium:
if there's an axe in the city, then
THIS SEEMS TO HAVE HAPPENED BEFORE
NEAR A CITY NAMED SAMSUN
HMMM
Gaspar:uh
so
his chariot disappeared
NobleHelium:so
check f5
any chariots owned by him that we can see
Gaspar:nope
scout went to the forest
NobleHelium:ok
it probably went to caen or nancy then
not sure how that works but whatever
maybe we should have closed borders without declaring first
not sure if that makes a difference
mental note for next time
Gaspar:hmm, yeah
NobleHelium:anyway
let's build the road, yeah?
Gaspar:yeah
chariot is on the attack tile
NobleHelium:NE of caen?
where was his scout originally again?
Gaspar:
its labelled in the screen
NobleHelium:oh
ok so
a green HA gets 99.1% odds on the chariot?
er
not 99.1%
90.9%
Gaspar:chariot is c1
you've got that, yes
NobleHelium:oh so it should be lower then?
Gaspar:i dunno
didnt check
NobleHelium:so check?
Gaspar:79.3
green v chariot
NobleHelium:do we take that?
Gaspar:i dont think we can waste a promo chariot
on this attack
NobleHelium:promo HA?
Gaspar:yeah
sorry
NobleHelium:ok
c1 HA is 90% odds, it does hit a breakpoint
anyway
i'm good with a green one
Gaspar:k hang on
gonna start writing a post
because if i dont do it as i go
i wont report
NobleHelium:yeah just don't misclick
ungroup the HAs :P
Gaspar:new forum is so fucking slow
NobleHelium:yes
i bet they're using one of those shitty virtual instances where you only get cpu capacity some of the time
Gaspar:k attacking
win
down to 1.96
2 spears in the city
both green
NobleHelium:oh awesome
i didn't think there would be any chance there would be only two spears
Gaspar:full fortify
NobleHelium:well
bpoth the first and second promo are break points
Gaspar:you got the amphibious penalty in there, yes?
NobleHelium:oh no i didn't
ok in that case only the second promo is a break point
Gaspar:what are odds for c1/shock?
NobleHelium:10.24%
not very good
i am checking how much damage we're likely to do with a green
Gaspar:aye
NobleHelium:
river is 25%?
Gaspar:yes
NobleHelium:yeah it's 25%
Gaspar:i said yes
NobleHelium:i was double checking
i keep confusing it with the ffh one
sorry
Gaspar:i have the game in front of me tongue
NobleHelium:problem is that one is 40%
oh
right
i forgot
k so
we have 58.52% chance to do at least two hits of damage
that brings it down to 70 hp
we would still not get odds on that, rargh
Gaspar:bleh
NobleHelium:three hits and we would get odds, yes
Gaspar:so basically our choices are
go with 1-promo HAs
lose them
NobleHelium:two hits and we would get 47.62% odds with a shock
Gaspar:and probably get 3 hits
NobleHelium:
one promo HAs are terrible
no break point there
Gaspar:gotcha
well
as we only have 2 2-promo ones in the stack
NobleHelium:ok i say we just send in a green
Gaspar:yeah
meh
1 15hp hit
send in another green?
NobleHelium:is it still top
or do we get the other one
Gaspar:other one
which is also full fortify
NobleHelium:rargh
ok send in another green
Gaspar:aye
exact same result
NobleHelium:how many 1 promos do we have
Gaspar:4, counting one thats already promod
NobleHelium:well
both first and second promo are breakpoints
9.42%, 19.84%, 36%
Gaspar:one promo is 36%
green is 20
so whats the 10?
NobleHelium:uhm is that showing amphibious penalty
Gaspar:ah no
oddly
only the one that killed the chariot shows that
NobleHelium:that's because that one is next to the city
and the rest are not
Gaspar:gotcha
NobleHelium:come on stop forgetting this stuff
Gaspar:well
what are the odds of a green getting 2 hits?
NobleHelium:55.42%
er
65.48% actually
Gaspar:i think we're likely to lose whatever attacks the next 2 times
so maybe just suicide the greens and be done with it?
NobleHelium:well we're actually likely to win one attack out of two 36% attacks
Gaspar:fair
fucking river
NobleHelium:all right well
what's your feeling now
Gaspar:well, i don't want to lose the 2 promo ones
but i also don't want to spend 6 HAs on this
i feel like using the 2 promo has
means worst case, we can mop up after
where as using greens, we could get skunked again and then lose another 2
i dunno. i think if i was just playing by feel id half-ass and send it 1-promo next
NobleHelium:how many green ones do we have
Gaspar:5
5 green, 4 one promo, 2 two promo, 2 chariots
NobleHelium:eh
i say we send in one two promo then reassess
Gaspar:alright, being paralyzed by indecision isn't getting us anywhere
sending the 2-promo in
NobleHelium:do we have pone already
half promoted
or no
Gaspar:no
NobleHelium:ok
then yeah promote to shock and go
Gaspar:WIN
up to 10 xp no less!
NobleHelium:hurrah
how much damage
Gaspar:its 64/100
NobleHelium:ok
Gaspar:err 54
NobleHelium:so promote up to 77 hp next turn
anyway
i say we send in a green one now
Gaspar:do we look the gift horse in the mouth here and send in a green
aye
NobleHelium:i figured we would send in a green one if we did win, yes
Gaspar:died
no hits
frown
NobleHelium:meh
Gaspar:meh indeed
NobleHelium:send in a 1 promo i say
Gaspar:k
NobleHelium:i dunno, just keeping various numbers of differing HAs at this point
i guess the thing about cats is
Gaspar:withdraw
NobleHelium:they reduce variance too
Gaspar:spear down to 53 hp
HA down to 4 hp
NobleHelium:ok
1 promo is actually not a break point now
so either the other 2 promo or a green i think
Gaspar:what are odds for each?
NobleHelium:86% and 66%
Gaspar:hmm
NobleHelium:c1 is 71.13% even though it's not a breakpoint
Gaspar:what are the odds for the c1/shock chariot, just out of curiousity
NobleHelium:interesting suggestion
only 41%
Gaspar:meh
NobleHelium:i say we send in the 2 promo and have no regrets
Gaspar:alright
win
HA down to 4.7
NobleHelium:what's in the city
Gaspar:granary
NobleHelium:oh shit dude
there's a road NE of caen
the culture is gone, yeah?
Gaspar:aye
NobleHelium:so that means
we can get to the tile NW of the city
which gets us in range of le havre
Gaspar:we keeping it?
NobleHelium:i want to see if there were any units that the chariot saw before
Gaspar:i signed every single unit its seen recently
NobleHelium:ok
so then
i think we can take le havre for sure
does that mean we keep caen?
Gaspar:i think it does
NobleHelium:ok
let's keep it then
Gaspar:theres another city
NobleHelium:south of le havre?
Gaspar:yeah
NobleHelium:can i get an updated 04
Gaspar:thats the pic for the report
ill give you an updated 04 once we've decided keep/raze
NobleHelium:where did you say you wanted a city before, 2W of the gold?
or in the spot where mike has planted
Gaspar:i wanted it 1E of where hes planted
NobleHelium:true, that spot is exposed to coastal attack
Gaspar:aye
NobleHelium:it's probably the city he planted a couple turns ago
Gaspar:yeah
NobleHelium:ok
so if we keep caen
and move within range of le havre which is going down for sure
do we ask for nancy and le havre for peace?
Gaspar:well
alright so we keep caen
NobleHelium:while i have no doubt that we'll take le havre
Gaspar:then we move to farm
NobleHelium:we have to hold it as well
Gaspar:we take le havre next turn
lets say best case scenario
we move on nancy the follwoing turn
(probably we need a turn to wait after that)
NobleHelium:well we could possibly split off some units and put them in range of nancy
Gaspar:but lets just say
where do we go from there?
NobleHelium:possibly raze the new city, then defend?
Gaspar:yeah, that my instinct
so is that a better or worse scenario
NobleHelium:do we remember how much culture
aix had
Gaspar:than taking peace
NobleHelium:well the only issue is the new city
Gaspar:yeah
thats the issue
NobleHelium:well do we ask for the new city as well then?
Gaspar:well
we don't know the name
NobleHelium:we could guess
it means we can't raze it, obviously
Gaspar:lets keep caen
i think worst case scenario
we raze lehavre
NobleHelium:well
how many turns of revolt in caen
Gaspar:best case scenario
4
we take all 3 and raze the new city
either way
i mean
i guess if we keep caen
NobleHelium:ok so you're saying either way we should not send a peace offer this turn
Gaspar:we have to keep lehavre
just to have a crumple zone
lehavre is in such a shitty spot to defend
NobleHelium:i don't really believe in cities as crumple zones
crumple zones are swaths of culture
it would be better to raze le havre
if we think we are not going to defend it
because he can't take it back and use it to reactivate culture
Gaspar:well
do you think we can defend lehavre?
NobleHelium:well
probably not to be honest
i mean honestly
if we raze everything
then plant a new city on the scout forest
well
that's not so great as a front city either
basically what i'm saying is that
just because we razed a bunch of cities and then signed peace
does not mean he'll be able to resettle them immediatley
maybe we don't sign peace
Gaspar:well
i wouldnt mind us gaining a little extra territory either tongue
NobleHelium:for the same reason that we would need some time to resettle the vacated area
so would he
Gaspar:so you think we should raze now?
NobleHelium:i'm thinking we should raze now and do as much guaranteed damage as possible, yes
well
if we keep caen
how about this
can we keep caen and still raze the other cities?
i mean
caen is not really worse
than a city 2E of the rice
as a border city
Gaspar:caen is a fairly defensible city
NobleHelium:the main issue with keeping caen
is that we can't plant a hill city west of it
as the border city
Gaspar:yeah
the city SE of lehavre is the ideal border city
NobleHelium:can we settle that city without any intermediary cities?
Gaspar:y'know
the more i think about this
we know we can't win this game
NobleHelium:uh huh
Gaspar:i say we keep caen, threaten the remaining border cities as best we can
NobleHelium:i was not expecting that lol
Gaspar:offer peace this turn for lehavre, nancy and whatever our best guess at the name of the shitty coastal city is
NobleHelium:i was expecting you to say you agree with my maximum damage philosophy
Gaspar:and then do our best to defend them
because honestly
hitting the home run is more fun than hitting the double
NobleHelium:well the thing is
Gaspar:even if the home run carries a strike out penalty whereas the double is no worse than a single
NobleHelium:i feel like if yuris recovers the cities
and i have no doubt he is going to draft a bunch of musketeers and try to take them back, the question is whether he'll still be fighting goreripper and thus too busy to do that or not
anyway
i feel like if he recovers the cities
we haven't quite succeeded in our mission
but i also think it is quite possible that mike may do a nicolae
if yuris salvages the situation
he will magically be less busy again
Gaspar:yeah
ok lets say
we keep caen
we offer the peace for 3 cities and he takes it
NobleHelium:well we'd have a lot of cities and no units to defend them, lol
Gaspar:well
thats my question
what do we need to defend against, lets say a stack of 10 musketeers
in 10t
NobleHelium:i'm pretty sure he can get more than 10 musketeers
Gaspar:im sure he can too
i doubt he will
NobleHelium:yuris is not nakor
Gaspar:#1 fail of mediocre players = not enough units
NobleHelium:teching gunpowder, switching to nationhood and drafting everywhere
is not hard to decide to do or to execute
Gaspar:you are like the least fun person ever
NobleHelium:sorry man
Gaspar:fine raze everything, same boring ass game
maybe you could play some of these boring ass turns tongue
NobleHelium:i guess that is the essence of the issue
ok
so let's say we take the cities
let's say yuris takes 5t to tech gunpowder
and then takes 5t to draft units
that's 20 musketeers, maybe 24
i forget if you can draft 5 or 6
can we defend against that in 10t?
Gaspar:well
to defend against 20 musketeers
we need x cats
x HAs
and x whatever our strongest city defender is, probably still skirms
meh
fucking lehavre and nancy being forkable from the west
NobleHelium:the fact of the matter is
we've taken cities
and goreripper has not
and his capital is actually pretty close to the cities we're taking
Gaspar:goreripper could be a fake war for all we know
NobleHelium:so i can't see him doing anything other than trying to recover the cities as soon as possible
Gaspar:sure, lets just raze everything
NobleHelium:i just don't see us in a better situation
Gaspar:if we had not gone down the road
NobleHelium:if we have to defend those cities that we can't defend
Gaspar:where we thought we might be able to keep them
i would be enjoying this
NobleHelium:gaspar
we keep the cities
Gaspar:but now theres no possible way for me to enjoy this
NobleHelium:are we better off?
Gaspar:if we keep them and can keep them, of course
NobleHelium:so, can we?
Gaspar:clearly not
NobleHelium:then we're not improving our situation by keeping them
it's that simple
Gaspar:i think you're way overestimating yuri
NobleHelium:ok, so then you think we can keep them
Gaspar:but i accept that im probably underestimating him
NobleHelium:just because we are razing the cities
does not mean we are not improving our situation
that is believing the "you should roll over" rhetoric
Gaspar:nah
this improves our situation in that it puts the eventual attack into the future
NobleHelium:this means he cannot build units out of those cities
it means he would have to trek a whole lot farther to get to our cities
Gaspar:already, I don't want to talk about this anymore. we're burning caen, yes?
NobleHelium:or spend time resettling the cities
yes
Gaspar:burnt
NobleHelium:i don't understand what you're so angry about
Gaspar:GG born in Iran
NobleHelium:the fact that we can even do this
is amazing
Gaspar:what do we want to do with it?
NobleHelium:settle, if we already have an HE unit?
Gaspar:medic probably not useful enough?
NobleHelium:well
where would we settle it, if we are?
Gaspar:HC I'd guess
no point in the cap, since we already get 2-promo HAs there
i mean i guess 2 promo maces are useful
NobleHelium:well i am keeping in the view that we'd build the HE before we get conquered
Gaspar:where would we build HE?
I feel like it'd have to be HC
teapot or iran are the other choices i guess
NobleHelium:yeah either hc or teapot i think
yeah i think it'd be hc
anyway
since we are not building a unit in hc yet
i think we can move the GG to the corn
well
i guess we'd get 3b if we settle it sooner
Gaspar:well, lets finish up in the west
NobleHelium:all right
Gaspar:are we taking the workers?
NobleHelium:yes, let's take the workers
even if we have to delete them there's nothing better to do with the chariot
Gaspar:1 spear in nancy
NobleHelium:well we could do this
keep the workers, promote the chariotwell
Gaspar:even if he takes all 3
the spears out of the city and damaged?
NobleHelium:yes, that's the thinking, but the other issue is that
you see that spear/worker 125 sign
Gaspar:yeah
NobleHelium:i am assuming that spear is NW of nancy now
so it will be in nancy next turn
so we'd need enough HAs in range of nancy such that we would take the city if it only has one spear in it
which would give him pause to let us keep the workers
so that he can defend the city
Gaspar:the alternative is we delete the workers and move the chariot back to the forest
NobleHelium:well actually we should move the chariot back to the forest either way
since his spear is still stuck outside the city if he takes the workers
Gaspar:alright
ill do that, we can decide on the workers at the end
NobleHelium:yeah
Gaspar:ok
remaining units with movement to do so
to the farm E-SE of LeHavre?
NobleHelium:well we want to consider moving some HAs in range of nancy right?
Gaspar:alright well lets assume he has axe, spear in lehavre next turn
NobleHelium:correct
Gaspar:what do we need to be sure to take it?
NobleHelium:do we remember if the axe had full fortify
Gaspar:95% sure it did
NobleHelium:ok
i was going to say we could get odds with the axe with a shock HA but then i remembered we used them both :P
ah well
anyway
i think if we allocate
3 HAs for the spear
and 2 for the axe
Gaspar:shock chariot doesnt get odds on the axe?
NobleHelium:oh
yes i forgot about that
lol
ok
Gaspar:pretty much its raison d'etre in that stack
NobleHelium:yeah
so 3 HAs and 1 chariot
most likely takes it
4 HAs and 1 chariot
i can't see us not taking it
how many HAs do we have left
Gaspar:nancy did not dry whip a spear
so while it could finish one naturally this turn
NobleHelium:correct
Gaspar:it could also just have 2, the existing and the one from before
(before = forest)
we currently have 7 healthy HAs with full movement
NobleHelium:i am assuming it will be either 1 spear if he recovers the workers, and 2 otherwise, yes
oh
that's fewer than i thought
Gaspar:plus 4 in varying states of injury
NobleHelium:does the nancy spear have fortify
Gaspar:yeah, full
so seems to me
if we want to split for threatening
3 HAs + 1 chariot to lehavre and 4 HAs + chariot to nancy
NobleHelium:well let's see
is the objective to take both cities next turn
or to take le havre and keep the workers
Gaspar:well
NobleHelium:i think the latter is better
in which case i say we send 3 HAs at nancy
Gaspar:the faster the better, because its not that hard to dry whip spears
and like 2 more spears fucks this for us
NobleHelium:that's true, but i don't think it would be a huge loss if we were to fail to raze nancy
whereas if we fail to raze le havre, epic fail
if you asked me would i rather keep 2 workers and let him keep nancy
vs razing nancy and not having the two workers
i think i might pick the workers
i'm saying that
if we send 3 HAs in range of nancy
that is exactly enough that he's guaranteed to keep the city with 2 spears
but most likely lose the city with 1 spear
and we still have 4 HAs + 2 chariots to take le havre
we actually should have moved the chariot 1E
since that's where we'll move the HAs
Gaspar:well, too late for that now
NobleHelium:yeah i know
just saying
anyway
i say we move 4 HAs and one or two chariots in range of le havre
and 3 HAs and one or zero chariots in range of nancy, on the tile 1N of the forest
Gaspar:we letting the scout live?
NobleHelium:yes
i don't see how the scout can do anything
i mean he can move onto the deer
then we kill it
Gaspar:its just xp, but we got the gg which i guess it what it was really good for
alright so
3 1-promo HAs
NobleHelium:i was only talking about the healthy units back there
Gaspar:4 green Has
NobleHelium:injured units we still need to decide
maybe pillage something if possible
one 1-promo HA on the nancy stack, other two on the le havre stack
Gaspar:and 2 2-promo chariots
NobleHelium:the already promoted shock chariot to the le havre stack
Gaspar:so 1 1-promo HA + 2 green HAs to nancy
all else to lehavre?
we're not attacking nancy next turn with this setup
its really just to try and keep the workers
NobleHelium:do we attack nancy if it has one spear in it, and if we had 3 HAs and 1 chariot in range?
Gaspar:dunno, hadn't really considered it
NobleHelium:there is no road NW of nancy, correct?
i'm asking you to consider it now
Gaspar:no
NobleHelium:ok
so that means
if he recovers the workers
the new spear would have to cover the city
so no fortify there
Gaspar:yeah, i suppose id take my shot
because its the best shot we'd probably have
NobleHelium:i can't see us failing to take the city with 3 HAs against one no fortify spear
so i don't think we need the chariot
Gaspar:alright
3HAs going to nancy
all other units to lehavre
specifically
NobleHelium:this is all betting that he's not finishing a spear this turn obviously
but i think that's a good bet
Gaspar:tile SE of wine and tile SE of rice
NobleHelium:correct
all other healthy units
don't move injured units
course there's only one left with movement but whatever
Gaspar:only 1 injured unit has movement
NobleHelium:keep in mind
if we take le havre
and the culture dissipates correctly
the roaded ghm becomes neutral
and we can hit the new city as well
TIME TO TAKE EVERYTHING IN ONE TURN YEAH
Gaspar:i think the lone injured HA
moves to the former caen tile
NobleHelium:what are the other two HAs on that tile
what promo and health
Gaspar:3.2, 2 promo, holding 3rd next turn
.2
4/5 xp, c1
NobleHelium:0.2 health?
Gaspar:correct
thats the withdraw ha
NobleHelium:oh yeah
Gaspar:anyway
NobleHelium:ok
yeah let's move to the ruins
i just want to make sure all our bases are covered
Gaspar:the HA will be what, 3.7 c1 next turn?
NobleHelium:in terms of keeping the HE unit alive
uh which one?
Gaspar:well
NobleHelium:the one with movement?
Gaspar:yes
NobleHelium:i don't know what its current state is
Gaspar:1.9
no promos
NobleHelium:and 2 exp? 3 exp?
Gaspar:2
NobleHelium:ok
so it has 32 hp
that means it'll be 66 hp
c1
so 3.96 str
Gaspar:so yeah
ok
moving it to ruins, it could conceivably be useful in a mop-up attack
NobleHelium:yeah
Gaspar:alright
NobleHelium:or we pillage the gold
Gaspar:back to domestic matters
NobleHelium:RAPE PILLAGE AND BURN RAAAR
Gaspar:i think we need to get ready to plant something SE of lehavre soon
NobleHelium:okay
Gaspar:alright
so nixon in E goes to help finish rice farm
NobleHelium:hold up
we should do cities first
Gaspar:ok
NobleHelium:see if we can do a settler anywhere
Gaspar:actually lets do the exploring work boat first
then cities
NobleHelium:sure
Gaspar:just on the off chance we meet someone and it changes something
SE-SW?
NobleHelium:yeah ok
Gaspar:nope
just more seven culture
its really fucking unbelievable
NobleHelium:you know
this game is so full of inept fighting
like
we're the only people who have fight with any degree with adeptness
other than seven
fought
of adeptness
Gaspar:hmm
wasnt bantams down to 3 cities?
NobleHelium:no
Gaspar:ok
ok
whiskey on HA still
grows eot
NobleHelium:well let's look at the cities
can we do a settler anywhere this turn
Gaspar:how about as we go through
ill say how many turns a settler is
NobleHelium:well that's kind of backwards but ok
easier to look at it at a glance imo
Gaspar:ok fine
NobleHelium:and see which city makes the most sense
if any
Gaspar:I WANT THIS TURN TO BE OVER
(that was yelling, not sarcasm)
NobleHelium:i still don't understand what you are so angry about
Gaspar:bay is the only currently empty build queue
NobleHelium:other than the shitty rng results i guess
what can we build there?
Gaspar:i mean besides bargain
which obviously isnt building us a settler
settler in bay is 7t
NobleHelium:well
we might as well be whipping it in that case
Gaspar:we could stop growing in plame
but thats 8t with artist
obviously we fire the artist next turn
NobleHelium:what about whiskey, can do we a settler there after the HA?
Gaspar:2t on HA
settler there is 4t
im sure we could get it to 3 with tile juggling
NobleHelium:well how much overflow
do we get
Gaspar:22/50
plus 20 this turn
lets say we work an engy next turn
NobleHelium:i think we work the phm next turn
Gaspar:k
so 25h adj next turn
67/50
NobleHelium:ok 11h overflow
then how many hpt into the settler?
Gaspar:hrm
shouldnt that be a little more
NobleHelium:yes it is
i was dividing by PS
13h overflow
Gaspar:yeah that sounds right
k
so 25hpt + 3foodhammer = 28hpt
28, 56, 84
lol
1h shy of 3t
NobleHelium:what is the base hpt?
Gaspar:3h shy
math fail
base hpt w/ phm = 20
NobleHelium:ok
hmm?
13 hpt base = 16 hpt adjusted
84 + 16 = 100
Gaspar:hah
right
NobleHelium:ok
Gaspar:forgot to put the overflow back through the forge
NobleHelium:so yeah tenatively we'll do that
tentatively
Gaspar:yeah, hate to stop growing honestly
but need the settler fast
NobleHelium:well the cap is one of the better spots to do it
since it won't be able to grow that soon at the next size
when it picks up a no food tile
Gaspar:yeah
NobleHelium:to grow it fastw e really need to take the FPs back from plame
since that's our "other food resource"
QUOTE QUOTE QUOTE
Gaspar:fucking serdoa
NobleHelium:ok
Gaspar:i suppose we will give it the fps after a bit
NobleHelium:we can go through cities now
Gaspar:maybe just grow max-ish in plame
NobleHelium:what do we do with the new citizen in plame
Gaspar:and work specs to stagnate
options include
dry cottage
spec
bare riverside plains
NobleHelium:that riverside plains is actually tempting if we had a cottage on it
Gaspar:sure
only really tempting during a ga though tongue
NobleHelium:ok
so if we work a spec
do we still grow in 2t
Gaspar:i think id be inclined to work a spec
yes
NobleHelium:how far can we grow, lots?
Gaspar:with 2 specs hired
7f surplus still
NobleHelium:i mean
happy cap wise
Gaspar:sizxe 14
err
12
sorry
NobleHelium:well
14 with silver
Gaspar:we get another happy back in 3t as well
NobleHelium:i'm inclined to say we work the cottage
i mean
once we get the border pop
Gaspar:dont you really just think
NobleHelium:i want to see how feasible it is to take over that plains hill tile
ok you're saying plame doesn't need that much pop
Gaspar:we're probably going to grow to like size 11
and stagnate on specs giving the fp back to cap
NobleHelium:since after we're out of caste we can only work 3 specs
Gaspar:forever and ever
NobleHelium:ok if we give the FPs back
and work 3 specs
assuming rest are food + food neutral tiles
Gaspar:i mean we could get a courthouse in there
NobleHelium:how many food surplus is that
Gaspar:so lets say 4 specs
if we work the food
and food neutral tiles
its +8f
NobleHelium:well let's just calculate it without the specs
ok
so we can feed 4 specs
Gaspar:which is enough for 4 specs
wiat
+7
my bad
NobleHelium:oh
so 3 specs, both cottages, and the plains cottage, potentially
so that's 3 cottages + 3 specs + 2 food
size 8
Gaspar:yeah, something like that
+2 lakes
NobleHelium:oh
Gaspar:size 10
NobleHelium:so size 10
if we pay 2 pop for the lib
we'd want to be size 12 when we get out of caste
yeah i still think we should work the cottage for now
Gaspar:alright so yeah cottage
k
iran took the riverside plains cottage on growth
i assume we'd rather the dry cottage
NobleHelium:well
Gaspar:4t to grow on dry, 5 on riverside
NobleHelium:how many turns to hamlet on the dry
Gaspar:theres obviously some question as to what irans destiny is as well
in terms of max size/tiles
vs teapot vs xyz
NobleHelium:well
it could easily take two food tiles
given the abundance of them in the area
although
maybe xyz is a better city long term
if there is a long enough term to consider
Gaspar:8t to hamlet on the dry cottage
i think maybe we grow to 10
swap the dry cottage to the phm
and the banana for the riverside plains cottage
and maybe work an engy
NobleHelium:well i think the plains cottage is better than an engy
Gaspar:now for sure
NobleHelium:oh yeah we're in rep
Gaspar:regardless
NobleHelium:keep forgetting
Gaspar:yeah
NobleHelium:i mean we've failed to build the mids so many times
lol
Gaspar:specs = better than undeveloped cottages
lol yeah
i think thats really the goal everywhere
NobleHelium:all right let's work the dry cottage for now
Gaspar:get to the max size your food will support the good tiles and how every many specs we can afford with that
NobleHelium:i think teapot can take it over later if nothing else
Gaspar:ok
hc remains on growth tiles for the time being
workboat due in 2t
growth also in 2
will grow onto another coast
like to do a lib after the wb
probably have to do units
NobleHelium:yeah
we have a rax in hc right?
i don't remember anymore
Gaspar:no
NobleHelium:ok
should probably do a rax then
Gaspar:its on our list of bad decisions
skipping the rax there
because we have built a ton of units there
sewards we already discussed and is locked into the artist configuration
NobleHelium:yeah
Gaspar:teapot likewise while it does the worker
ok bay i think we decided we'd grab a spec on growth
NobleHelium:yeah
let's do a merchant?
Gaspar:yeah, that makes sense
might like to have one in the pool
so
suppose we need to tech lit now
which means we'll build NE here?
NobleHelium:if anywhere, yeah
we could harness those two third ring chops
Gaspar:NE is so fucking expensive
plus we'd need a market there too
city can run 5 specs
what are we building there?
unit? market? ch?
NobleHelium:how long does stuff take
how long does a skirm take
Gaspar:skirm is 4t
ch is 20t
market is 25
we need OR there
NobleHelium:what's the maintenance cost
oh yeah
Gaspar:we knew that already
but if we're thinking about NE, obviously
maint is 6.55
so probably do the skirm for now
NobleHelium:ok
yeah
let's do the skirm
we'll need them
Gaspar:start a market when OR comes in maybe
watergate works a forest over the dry cottage
NobleHelium:we have 2 skirms and a spear in bay?
Gaspar:yes
NobleHelium:yes on watergate
5t to lighthouse?
Gaspar:4
NobleHelium:oh good
Gaspar:chappa works improved tiles + artist
NobleHelium:yes
work boat 2W
Gaspar:xyz works pigs
NobleHelium:yes
Gaspar:bargain works deer
wb 2 w
new bay skirm forts?
NobleHelium:i watched fabianski's foot save on the penalty yesterday
pretty amazing
Gaspar:fuck that game
NobleHelium:well
main issue is that ozil got injured
i don'tt hink we could have expected to go through even though it was possible
Gaspar:yeah, but i really hate bayern
NobleHelium:yeah
Gaspar:robben is the worst
NobleHelium:i hate robben too
those guys need to be banned like alex rodriguez
Gaspar:there was a particularly awful dive early in the game
NobleHelium:yeah
Gaspar:he should have been booked
NobleHelium:i saw the gif
so do we want to move the bay skirm out
to the workers
Gaspar:the penalty probably was a pen, but he super embellished it
well
are we moving the trailing HA and chariot to that tile?
NobleHelium:yeah we should
Gaspar:k
bay skirm could go as well
if we want to get it in place for lehavre city
NobleHelium:yeah something like that
Gaspar:k
NobleHelium:i can't think of an appropriate name
something related to mike getting his comeuppance
Gaspar:ill think of a really disappointing scandal and name it after that
whitewater maybe
anyway
NobleHelium:what do you mean by disappointing
whitewater is not bad actually
Gaspar:whats the plan for bargain workers
NobleHelium:ok well we send one of the deer guys to the silver
other deer guy goes 1E onto the gfh
last guy cottages in place 1t and cancels
Gaspar:ok
galley NW, pick up skirm and settler SE?
NobleHelium:yes
wait how long does it take to build the iran HA now
Gaspar:4t
NobleHelium:ok
that's fine
Gaspar:also, bargain is building mint or wb or lh?
NobleHelium:wb
Gaspar:ok
worker on cottage NW of xyz
SW and cottage?
NobleHelium:yeah ok
Gaspar:plame desert skirm into plame
NobleHelium:yes
so we took 35 minutes to decide to raze caen
Gaspar:nixon helps farm rice?
NobleHelium:yeah
Gaspar:just leaves the GG
NobleHelium:i think we move it 1W, which keeps it in range of settling in hc next turn, and then settle assuming we successfully promote the HE horse archer
Gaspar:ok
NobleHelium:any chance we'd want to sprinkle exp
Gaspar:uh
NobleHelium:for defending against gavagai and/or healing faster?
Gaspar:1W
doesn't let it settle
it only gets it there
NobleHelium:sure it does
we have construction
Gaspar:its in iran
NobleHelium:oh whoops
Gaspar:we dont have engineering
NobleHelium:i thought it was in whiskey
Gaspar:lwts move it to cottage S of peak
NobleHelium:well then we should move the max 4 tiles along the southern route
Gaspar:yeah
we could sprinkle, yes
its an option
NobleHelium:my main concern is
are we going to get back in time to defend against gavagai
Gaspar:yeah
thats my concern as well
i mean
NobleHelium:well
Gaspar:i assume, since hes not making progress quickly against bantams AI
NobleHelium:he's still failing at conquering bantams
Gaspar:yeah
NobleHelium:i don't think he's going to stop that
just to fuck with us
Gaspar:correct
NobleHelium:if he hasn't finished with it
ok
well we can reconsider next turn
bantams still has 5 cities?
Gaspar:4
NobleHelium:or is it 4
hmm
Gaspar:poor sury AI
NobleHelium:well he hasn't lost any cities
Gaspar:hes way more competent than bantams
NobleHelium:i mean
you could probably turn on production automation
and then fortify all units
and it would be better than bantams
Gaspar:aye
NobleHelium:ok
what's the tech situation
Gaspar:ok
so
100% is still 3t
we have enough gold for 2t
NobleHelium:how much short are we for 3t
Gaspar:way short
NobleHelium:and can we do 90% and finish it in 3t
Gaspar:expenses are up to 151
90 is 3t
80 is 4t
NobleHelium:ok how much gold short are we for 3t of 90%
Gaspar:we have just shy of enough gold
for 3t of 90
90 is 119
NobleHelium:well
Gaspar:we should be getting le havre gold next turn
NobleHelium:that's true
Gaspar:so maybe run 100 this turn
then see where we're at after that
maybe do like 100, 100, 70
NobleHelium:well
better to do 70, 100, 100
Gaspar:yeah, thats true
NobleHelium:ok i say we do 70%
Gaspar:alright
anything else?
NobleHelium:yeah that's it for the turn
3.5 hour turn
Gaspar:im thinking about slightly cleaning this up
and posting it
NobleHelium:well
Gaspar:
just so everyone can see what nonsense we go through during a war turn
yuri did not finish a unit in nancy
NobleHelium:hurrah
so the great irony is
after we spent so much time bashing mike's road network
he builds a useless road that makes a world of a difference for us
Gaspar:lol yeah
NobleHelium:what's the tile culture line
on the disputed bery tiles
like
Gaspar:86/13, 87/12, 87/12
NobleHelium:hmm ok
well
let's see
we put 11 culture there this turn, i think that's how it works
Gaspar:77/22 on the 2 neon first ring tiles
NobleHelium:that means those tiles have about 85 culture total
so he has 74 culture in them
producing 1 cpt
if we drop the artist and produce 7 cpt
7 turns later we have 81 culture
and he has 81 culture too
so we would take over the tiles in about 8 turns
if we work the artist
sorry
that's actually 10 turns later, soa bout 11 turns
can't multiply correctly
if we keep working the artist then we would take it over in 7t
now obviously we can't work the artist for 7t
so either we keep working the artist and then pick up a second artist at size 10
and take over the tiles roughly when we get out of the GA
or we take them over in about 11t
this is assuming he doesn't start pumping culture into bery obviously
oh we're also getting a lib in there soon
we should demand more supplies from seven
Gaspar:like what?
NobleHelium:i was just joking
Gaspar:firewood? tobacco? vestal virgins?
NobleHelium:oh
vestal virgins sounds interesting
firewood to burn corpses could also be useful
Gaspar:we could ask for livestock and seeds and start our own game of banished on silver island
NobleHelium:lol
have you played banished?
Gaspar:nah
NobleHelium:hmm
yuris could also take back the workers with the axe in le havre
oh well
i guess it doesn't really matter, it's the same if he deletes them or us
Gaspar:aye
NobleHelium:they cost us 3 gpt this turn i guess, but that's it
I've got some dirt on my shoulder, can you brush it off for me?
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Here's a pic to help understand what we were talking about with positioning the units, which is one of the key parts of the chat.

[Image: t127-deployment.JPG]

We want to keep the workers, so the idea is to entice yuris to keep his units in the cities instead of recovering the workers. So we moved 3 HAs in range of Nancy, which is enough to take the city with 1 spear but not 2 spears. He likely has a spear NW of Nancy that will get into the city this turn. Of course, after the turn ended I realized that he could take the workers with the axe in Le Havre instead, but either he then deletes them or we recapture them this turn, and either way a unit would have to leave one of the cities. The main loss is that we didn't distribute the units such that we can take both cities this turn (assuming two spears in Nancy), but I don't think we could have allocated enough units there to take it either way, since it would be risking not taking Le Havre. Our assumption is that Le Havre will likely be defended by an axe and a spear this turn.
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