[SPOILERS] Roland and Suboptimal Team Up

[suboptimal]

I have thoughts on Archduke/Kaiser as well....

Most of Turn 90

While getting this post ready I inadvertantly deleted all of my screenshots. Went back in and took a few new ones.

So we had some diplomatic stuff pop up last turn. One thing that occurred to me immediately after my prior post is that CMF didn’t make an offer to me, only China – if he had made me the offer as well I would have seen it. So, having had China decline do I have any offers? Yes, yes I do. I’ve got requests for DoF’s with both Woden and Ljubljana. Nothing from CMF (WHY DON”T YOU LIKE MEEEEE AS MUCH AS YOU LIKE CHINAAAAAAA?!?!?! [not])We’ll put those on ice, play out the rest of the turn and then pause for diplo discussion.

No sign of the Russian galley at Al. Warrrior and chariot reach the coast SW of Al, they’ll be the first pickups. Quad #4 is out next turn. Embarked warrior is inside city limits, will swap places with the chariot next turn. Have a Good Time has finished its walls and starts on the Harbor – 20 turns to completion right now.

Out on Big Island the slinger & settler link up on the coast just east of the coffee. Settlement at ‘C’ in three turns. Builder gets to hill wines for plantation next turn.

In Australia the settler has disappeared. Confucius moves east and finds the settler. So, where’s MPTF going with this thing? Dunno. What I do know is I’m moving northeast in order to get out of this corner.




On settlervision the settler is standing in the fourth ring of both visible cities. Given the resources to the north and the fact that they are coastal I think I just slowed them down a bit. I’m going to go around and see what I can see of that city. In the south I find another settler. MPTF is late to the party but trying to catch up here. I finish my movement and find more Australian borders to the west.




Up at Cuneiform an English ship has entered the city’s territory, likely headed to pillage the Cothon (it’s on the turtles). HEY! THAT’S SUPPOSED TO BE MY PILLAGE! Eh, I move north, find a route east and take it.



The galley off the Chinese coast moves back down to the strait, this time on “our” side of the island.

Woden & Ljubljana gained a small amount of milpower, Archduke & Kaiser lost a little bit (Archduke likely lost at least one ship as his drop was by about 40). Australia is cash-negative, Woden is breakeven, Kaiser is marginally positive (+2). My milpower is now highest (412), next closest is Archduke (355) and Ljubljana (247). I’m willing to bet you that everyone is watching my milpower and era score to see if/when jongs show up.

So, what do we want to do here? Ljubljana only asked you for a DoF while they both asked me for one. IIRC the way diplo works in non-team games is that if you have a DoF with someone and your ally declares war on them then you aren’t at war but your ally is. Thus, if you DoF’d Phoenicia and I didn’t and subsequently declared war I believe that I’d be at war with Norway and I’d be at war with both. However, I don’t feel like finding out how that mechanic works in a live situation.

Woden/Ljubljana got themselves into a bit of a pickle early by building up a navy and getting into tiffs with the other two teams in the game. Jongs aren’t normally a “game over” button and I don’t have enough to make that the case here. However, right now a group of 4-6 could cause problems for lots of people. We need to keep that in mind since depending on how aggressive we (I) get with them we could wind up in a 3v1 against us. Diplomatically I think we need to rebuff Woden and Ljubljana and let them figure out what to do. They might attempt to peace out Archduke/Kaiser but I think after capturing a city from him Archduke won’t let them get off that easily (unless they give it back).

Regarding Russia perhaps we offer something like a 10-for-10 or 15-for-15 trade? That would indicate to CMF that we’d want to come back to the table in that number of turns. I think 15 is better since it’d “run out” right around the time I was attacking Wodin.

The first question is what do we want to do once we take Wodin? My thinking is to head along the north coast, taking any cities along there right through to Cuneiform before we consider peacing out Phoenicia/Norway. Once we’re there we’d need to evaluate whether or not to peace them out and work on taking out the Red/White navy or hunt down the rest of the Phoenician/Viking navy first. I think that all four jongs, the two spare quads plus the western galley should all take part in the operation. That gives us enough firepower to take cities while clearing out naval units. With my current Faith output I could buy a new jong every 12 turns if I do no settler or builder purchases. Al could produce one in ten turns. I could have two more jongs out by Turn 108 and send those plus a galley towards the city-states for conquest. We’d just need to decide what to do with them. Alternatively I could faith buy a jong in a recently captured city to add to the main invasion fleet while building a rear guard force at Al.

Provided we’re in agreement with this approach the discussion should turn to what to do if we take Cuneiform. The first issue is whether to peace out Norway/Phoenicia or go for a total kill, but I think that’ll depend on the number of inland cities. If they’re 100% coastal then I think a total kill is in order. The second issue is the Red/White navy. Taking out their ships next (and possibly doing a take and raze operation on their coastal cities) while we have a technological upper hand would seriously impede their progress. Even fighting our way down the north coast of Phoenicia/Norway we should be able to move quick enough that Archduke/Kaiser are not able to unlock caravels, frigates or privateers/sea dogs before we get to their shores.

[roland of gilead]

I don't think they will have too many inland cites given their sea focus and love of boats.

Agree with your assessment and it sure would be nice to damage England after Norway Phoenicia.

[suboptimal]

I'm hoping that they are mostly coastal. It doesn't appear that they've settled much to the south of Wodin given the loyalty and settlervision views. I'll need to see what's available to pillage for and as I go since they'd provide me with upgrade cash and the ability to upgrade the remaining quads. You may find yourself sending me cash every few turns to bankroll my empire if I go negative cash flow.

I'll quietly ignore the diplomatic requests and send the turn along. My galley off your coast will stay in the area and perhaps shuffle back and forth to keep tabs on any ship movements in the area.

[roland of gilead]

No problem with cash. I am working on cash flow.

I do worry about my great walls getting pillaged out of Valletta.

[suboptimal]

Depending on how fast you build them we might have taken Vilnius by then.

Speaking of Valetta I'll suzerain them the same turn I start my upgrades (T96). I think I should keep suzerainty until I take Wodin and see what sort of loyalty and resistance issues we'll have. If there's no loyalty problem (or I solve it by taking a city) we might want to consider buying walls into the city for defense and then having you take suzerainty for your own needs.

[roland of gilead]

Sure no problem.

I will have the envoys soon but no rush for me to take control.

i will get some swords to protect my wall but that will take time.

[roland of gilead]

Turn 91.

End of the era in 10 turns as expected.



In the NW i advance on the barb camp. will move the warrior in next turn and hear the spear a turn. Going to take a while to clear this. They have the strength advantage.



borna starts on it's Temple and the missionary will convert it next turn.



City 6 will be ready to found in 2 turns but i will wait 1 turn to get 2 extra builder charges from Feudalism.

Russia has 10 cities i really need to be catching up there.



When Feudalism comes in i will slot limes so i can smash out walls all over the place as first part of getting my defense up.

[roland of gilead]

Should DOF someone just to stop a dogpile on us?

IF so when?

I just think if we start cruising about with Jongs picking up a pile of cities they would be mad not to turn on us.

we could have a fun 20-30 turns with Jongs the tide will turn no doubt and we will be a major target.

or are we trying to win this in the next 30 turns.

[suboptimal]

If the plan is to go after Phoenicia/Norway and then possibly England/Japan then the natural ally would be Russia/Australia. One concern with Russia is, of course, cossacks on Big Island, so at some point I'd need a reasonable navy (a few caravels & jongs) to defend the sea between Big Island and their home continent. We could try to DoF one (or both) of that team while pounding the others...perhaps offer the 15-for-15 gold to Russia and see if they'll DoF 15 turns later?

Whether we take and hold or take and raze Red/White cities will depend on how much of their navy I can find and destroy and how well we can hold against loyalty. My thinking is that Pheonicia/Norway can be held easily while England/Japan may be a raze and go situation (capitals excluded). Russia/Australia is likely in the same situation if we were to attack - liberate or keep city-states that are outside loyalty influence, keep capitals and raze everything else.

I think the only way we win this in 30 turns is if jongs are a larger game-over button than I'm willing to give them credit for. Of course, if there's a lot of to pillage in Phoenicia/Norway then I might get a larger fleet put together than I'm anticipating.

[roland of gilead]

I think 15 for 15 makes sense.

I also agree it's unlikely we are doing anything other than raising those red and white cities.

If we can damage two civs badly and hold off the 3rd for 45 turns we should have all sorts of advantages hopefully.

we could have pike and shot by then and walls on big island etc for Cossack.