[SPOILERS - PBEM17] novice and spaceman - Suryavarman of India

[spacemanmf]

I'll post the chat shortly, but for now... I've got the latest turn.

[spacemanmf]

Right then, there's a vague plan for us, Dave & Shoot to team up and eradicate the rest of the world. It is still not settled whether we do that one civ at a time, or both together.

Dave approached us on this, giving us the information that they were thinking of attacking us but have change their minds because we're not doing well enough basically.

Firstly, Dave dialled up novice:

21:58 David: Novice?

me: Hi

21:59 David: Have a sec to talk?

me: Yes

David: How does the idea of attacking Krill strike you?

22:00 me: I don't know? Dangerous? Inevitable?

David: I have a large fleet of East Indiamen

you have a decent standing army

Krill has been dicking around and delaying military techs

for communism and democracy

22:01 me: democracy too, now?

David: yes, he finished Constitution last turn

me: huh

David: I might add he has 4,500 beaker lead on me

about 2,500 on you

me: yes

22:02 Well as I'm sure you are aware we have an eastern neighbour that is drafting Riflemen

David: they're not for you

me: I figured and hoped as much

David: well, not anymore

me: heh

David: laying cards on the table, since you really have no reason to trust me

there was a plan to attack you for a long time

22:03 me: interesting

David: as I'm sure you figured

me: did it get scrapped before or after we signed NAPs?

David: long after

22:04 me: well now I'm curious

David: Rego and I are gearing up for war against Rego

....

*shoot

SHOOT AND I ARE GEARING UP FOR WAR AGAINST REGO

me: haha

David: Krill is supposed to be the third party

me: I saw Rego took a fair chunk of Shoot's land

22:05 David: he's been dicking around on this coalition war, and delaying rifling

using me to an extent

and he frankly almost poses as much a threat as Rego to run away with the game

me: absolutely

everybody does, really



except Shoot

David: except Shoot

22:06 lol

okay, so here's the proposal:

I loan you the EI's I was prepaing for Krill

you go after him

Shoot goes after Rego

I help with both

we drag both leaders back

22:07 me: sounds good in theory

we have a 10t cooldown with Darrell though

David: I do too :/

I can't belive it, but I'm considering breaking the NAP

how open are you to that idea

me: He hasn't really done anything to justify it after the infamous incident earlier

22:08 I think NAPs are breakable if the preconditions of the NAP are broken

but I don't really feel that's the case for us wrt to this NAP

David: okay, meh morality wins

I would only consider breaking it if you were willing

still, he's three techs away from rifling

so won't be able to draft as much

22:09 check that, two

RP and rifling

me: As are we...

We were thinking of researching Steel next though

22:10 that is also available to Krill

David: no, he doesn't have chemistry

me: oh

right

Rego does

David: yep

he's staring my EI's down with frigates

me: heh

hence the change of target?

David: the war against him will be a slogfest, Shoot won't gain much ground

Krill is extremely weak

22:11 me: What are your civics at the moment?

David: HR, Bureacracy, Slavery, Decentral, Theo

after the golden age switching back into nationhood

for more drafting

me: right, that's what I thought, you're not drafting right now

22:12 David: stopped to run bureacracy for 6t, yeah

me: Just out of curiousity, why did you call off your attack plans on us?

David: assessment of Rego as the bigger threat

22:13 I'm talking to you because while you have a strong economy and a good tech lead, you don't have the runaway potential of Krill or Rego

me: I agree with your assessment

22:14 Although I suspect Krill has a larger runaway potential than Rego

David: meh, I give it 50/50

even if both have frigates

22:15 a first strike by EI's should be able to raze a couple coastal cities

me: Have you followed the latest developments in PBEM13?

David: reel the pair back in

nope, what happened?

me: Krill is subbing for Pegasus

we canceled our NAP with him in preparation for an attack

during the cooldown, and after, the buildup on both sides is pretty large

22:16 Point being, don't underestimate how much Krill can mobilize in 10 turns

especially on quick speed

David: I don't, his build up potential is enormous

however, we would have the advantage of your head start with your cats, and muskets

and the fact that you don't have to build ships

and EIs can fork obscene numbers of cities

22:17 he doesn't have construction or rifling atm

me: okay, let me put it like this

we're probably entering military buildup mode now anyway

22:18 I guess the next step if we agree to join in would be to cancel the NAPs

But I'd reserve the right to call off the attack and pursue peaceful relations if things just work out to a stalemate

No point in throwing the game to Rego after all

22:19 David: fair enough, I would ask that you don't call if off until after the first strike has suceeded/failed

22:20 me: well, I think we need to evaluate continuously. Of course at a given time we pass a point of no return where the resources invested in the attack are big enough that calling it off would be a lose-lose proposition

22:21 At any rate I think pushing Krill off his farmer's gambit could be beneficial

22:22 David: Good point

So, are we agreed on this idea?

me: I think the idea is the right move for us at this point

I need to discuss with Spaceman though

22:23 Mostly I'm a bit wary of another conflict with Krill, as he's such a fearsome opponent

David: me too

I feel pushed into a corner

this seems like the best way out

22:24 Do you have any idea how many East Indiamen you would need?

I followed the second half of this conversation, sent a couple of messages to novice, and it soon became a three-way chat.

22:24 novice has joined

David has joined

me: hey - space here

novice: novice here

David: Dave here

me: just been doing some catching up on the chat

22:25 David: What are your thoughts?

me: is it a 3 cs 1 or a 3 vs 2?

*vs

David: 3v2

22:26 simply because it does no good to let Rego run away while three attack Krill

plus Shoot is too far away to benefit from a war against Krill

me: well now that we have the arm i guess

22:27 novice: we could do a land trade of course

just thinking out loud

David: go ahead, am open on this

me: yeah i think the advantage of a 3 vs 1 is a quicker kill

then move onto the next one

we don't gain from rego

but happy to help out

David: I haven't spoken to Shoot on this yet, so idk his thoughts

me: in equal measures

22:28 David: but I would be fine with that as well

22:29 I just trust you two wouldn't attack Shoot during this melee

me: we would sign longer NAPs

novice: I agree anyway that both darrell and rego would need to suffer for an attack to make sense

22:30 Do you have a NAP with Rego, Dave?

David: not anymore

that's what precipitated his recent build up

novice: right

some time ago his eastern megacities were extremely vulnerable

and three of them are forkable from our southwestern island

22:31 it would take out two holy cities and many of his wonders

David: Pindicator

sankore

minaret

20 pop city

novice: Moai

22:32 David: still, believe Krill bigger threat

and less vulnerable

basic debate is 3v2 or 3v1

and what Shoot will favor

22:33 novice: My point is that in order to slow rego down razing those cities would be enough

Darrell might be harder

But I guess Shoot wants to grab more land from Rego?

David: ah, sorry didn't get your point

yes

Rego settled in his face earlier this game

22:34 but he also wants Hostile Takeover and his own iron

I think you could convince him to enter a war against Krill if you two were willing to do a trade of sors

me: we're open to a deal on that i think if that was the case

22:35 we perhaps should have named it something friendlier

:-)

but we've been very literal all game

David: lol :D might have helped

I really like your naming scheme I gotta say

like net borrower

was very clever

novice: Yeah Spaceman was proud of that one

me: heh

22:36 considering i was at a blank seconds earlier, i was

it gets hard when lots are call "something" market, though

David: oh, and kudos on beating me to that offshore island by 2t :P

my weary settlers had to turn back

me: novice, i would have thought, is quite proud of that

novice: you shouldn't have traded maps

there are moreislands though

I saw Shoot grabbed one

22:37 David: I grabbed the other two

no more are left I believe

novice: ok, so you took the ones west of Overxposure?

David: yes

novice: good, good

an amicable division



David: meh, would have preferred monopoly

but I digress

22:38 war

I have a conversation scheduled with Shoot tonight to discuss this

in the meantime, shall we agree to cancel NAPS with Krill for the next turn

22:41 novice: bit of a side chat going on here

David: gathered as much

22:42 me: we're happy to cancel NAPs but we won't be in a position to attack in 10 turns

David: alrighty, that was the question

actually the ideal turn to cancel may be 118

22:43 me: how so?

novice: what turn are w on now?

David: here's my rough estimate of his teching:

I just played 115

22:44 115: researched constution

116: saves gold

117: researached Democracy

118: finishes democracy

so at the start of t119 (if my estimate is right

he has no gold

and nowhere close to military techs

22:45 and little overflow

novice: good thinking

22:46 what units were you thinking we would contribute?

Because Shoot is drafting Rifles

whereas we are 2 techs from Rifling and 2 techs from drafting - but only 1 tech from Steel

David: tech rifling then cannons

drafting is just so powerful

22:47 and I can't even gurantee that shoot will agree to switch to Krill

while drafting rifles

cue up cats to auto switch hammers into cannon

something to that effect perhaps

novice: that sounds like conventional wisdom

it will take us more than 10 turns though

22:48 me: and we'll lose turn(s) to get to nationhood

22:49 (+theo)

have we even got theology?

novice: not sure

I don't think so

which game is this? pbem17?

me: ok so maybe just 1 turn revolt to nationhood then

haha

22:50 David: you don't have nationhood

novice: no

David: unless my tech spreadsheet is off

novice: you're correct

we'll need to research Philo->Nat->RP->Rifling->Steel->Physics

22:51 me: hmm

novice: Or we could just go Physics->Steel instead of going down the beaten path

David: ideal turn to cancel is t118 (based on my conjecture)

war on 128

13 turns from now

is that enough time

22:52 novice: Some airships to knowck down top defenders would do wonders for amphibious attacks

David: what do you think I'm going for :D

novice: ah, true

I noticed you could research Physics

me: we need to finish biology really - that's going to really help us

novice: hope you beat Darrell to it

David: ->physics ->banking ->rp -> rifling

novice: yeah that's our first tech regardless

David: he agreed to let me have it

22:53 novice: We have aunique advantage here

You have airhsips before the rest of the guys

Shoot is first to drafted rifles by a mile

and we can get cannons

22:54 A joint army sounds powerful to me

we can also supply frigates for your eis

David: problem is the turn order:

you and I go together

22:55 but Krill breaks up Shoot's turn

novice: we'll just gift units around?

David: would need to be under one civ to make it work

me: yeah - he gifts us rifles, we gift him cities

and then we gift troops galore for the rego war

22:56 David: I don't know if he'd be comfortable gifting you rifles

But I'll try to convince him

me: ok, well as i say we'd sign a longer NAP

and we don't break em

22:57 David: I'm just saying, since I go after you

for the super army to work

you would need my Eis and airships too

you would be in a real position to screw Shoot and I over

PB2 style :D

me: heh

well that was some of the dumbest play i ever saw...

albeit he did fool him

22:58 novice: well you could control the units as well, I'd think?

David: I have less attacking options, but I could do it, yes

question would be if you trust me

novice: We'd sign open borders so you could attack from anywhere that we could attack from

22:59 David: need to take the units back to my territory to gift, long transit times

need to look at the map and figure out best place to strike

novice: I have no reason not to trust you

true that

me: not on super fast EIs with circumnavigation bonuS (one way only!)

23:00 novice: ah good point

David: ah, prob best for you to control the super army then

I draft rifles and attack his arm with my remaining EIS

me: with great power comes great responsibility

novice: haha, I'd gotta say I could understand if Shoot was slightly hesitant to give us control of it

23:01 but seriously, we are to be trusted

David: you two haven't had the best relationship

lol

I believe that, honestly do

me: not our fault, i might add

David: didn't say it was

novice: well he did beeline military techs to the extent that he had Janissaries before Civil Service

me: yeah never trust anyone who might not trust you

David: it just makes sense to me to be friends with the player who doesn't have a great chance of winnin the game

thus our shared religion

me gifting him iron

23:02 novice: right

similarly, it makes sense for both of you to be friends with us

23:03 David: since we're all trailing

yes, I agree

novice: although you're in third so really you benefit the most

David: meh, I'd say we're tied

I managed to screw Kyan's position up in a number of ways

novice: you have Fin and Dikes for a late bloom

we're burnt out

23:04 David: you obviously didn't notice that 24 pop whip I did :D

good points

novice: what whip?

David: I whipped 6 universities to completion

23:05 me: ouch

David: because of the massive Snowball Krill is getting from his early oxford

trying to catch up

novice: you did that just now?

David: 2t ago

23:06 novice: I think we completed OU 2-3 turns ago

but we don't really have a megacapital for it

David: okay, I didn't notice a spike

but I havent cruised your lands lately

novice: right, way to rub salt in the wound

David: Krill's was immedietly apparent

23:07 me: even though he was on max tax at the time?

probably switched in and out

we were on max science anyway, more or less

burning our merchant cash

David: lol, surprised you sent another to Shoot

23:08 me: we thought it had a certain poetic justice

23:09 and who would have the heart to break not one but two agreements in order to kill not one but two great merchants

David: he didn't consider it that time

unless you thought about sending it into his core

in which case he would have killed it

23:10 me: well he didn't consider it the first time until he was more or less told to

David: who pulled the strings that time?

me: krill & possibly rego, i think

novice: your guess is as good as mine, one of the three usual suspects, I'd say

me: although kyan wasn't far off it, i don't think

23:11 novice: I think Kyan could have been involved too

David: I don't recall

meh, okay, definites:

I talk to Shoot tonight, iron this out

I'll email you

23:12 so we can start figuring out how to coordinate this and terms for exchanging/loaning units

me: ok sounds good

David: I'll have airships in 2-3t

I have 22 EI's at the moment

10 more on the way

how's your military?

[SNIP - there followed an off-topic discussion of a slug in my toilet...]

23:16 anyway, that's an impressive collection of EIs you have

can you even fill them yet?

David: nope

best I have are muskets

and only a few of those

me: and some drafted swords?

23:17 David: I have some drafted macement tooling around at the moment yes

got my drafting city up early

me: nice work

David: and been taking fre drafts out of there

but no, idea was Shoot and Krill fill them

originally anyway

23:18 novice: well talk to Shoot

and then let's figure out the specifics

David: alrighty, sounds like we have a plan

23:19 I like our odds

especially if we can hit Krill at the optimum time and you supply Frigates

novice: yes

23:20 me: summat to do anyway

novice: right

me: save a spaceyawn

novice: instead of just teching to space

and then whoever launches first gets dogpiled and gets his capital razed

David: yeah, would rather see this game go out with a bang :D

me: heh, go lats

*ast

23:21 argh

novice: ok, talk to you later

David: alrighty, I look forward to the lurkersplosion

see ya' both later

novice has left

me: bye

[spacemanmf]

Well this is our army. Hence us saying we're not ready.



In the south-west, I moved the frigate on the low side, foolishly. Krill still would have seen it because it had just completed, but nevertheless there is nowhere to go that way. It can slip through our canal city for now.



I sent the workboats on a long journey, then accidentally sent the galleon back again. Not a good turn for boat trips.



Demographics now that we've had to dial research down to 40% (Biology in 2).



F1 screen (ignoring the smaller cities, where I whipped libraries).



Darrell/Krill got a Great Scientist. Here is the tech screen.

[spacemanmf]

So, there's an edited bit of the conversation above, where I rabbited on about a slug in our downstairs toilet. Here it is, gastropod fans!

[Mardoc]

So, there's an edited bit of the conversation above, where I rabbited on about a slug in our downstairs toilet. Here it is, gastropod fans!

How in the world....?

[spacemanmf]

How in the world....?

Not figured that out yet..

[Ichabod]

So, there's an edited bit of the conversation above, where I rabbited on about a slug in our downstairs toilet. Here it is, gastropod fans!

It's an omen about the results of the planned war...

[pindicator]

It's an omen about the results of the planned war...

How do you interpret this? That your civ is slowly climbing its way out of the toilet?

[spacemanmf]

How do you interpret this? That your civ is slowly climbing its way out of the toilet?

Well, if you look at the path of the slug, it was heading there, thought better of it, and has chosen a path towards greatness...

[Bobchillingworth]

Ohhh, so that's why women always ask that the seat be left down!