Game balance

[Dymlos]

Shuri's my favorite early hero: excellent for scouting, transporting settlers or other troops, and if developed, a great late-game skydrake-slayer.

[ConjurerDragon]

Magic Immunity breaks the convention. All other "immunities" are not complete immunities, but rather very high resistances. Weapon Immunity increases shields to 10 unless magic weapons are involved. Strong ranged units can punch through Guardian Wind and various missile immunities.

It would be more fair if Magic Immunity granted something like +10 crosses, and a node-like counter magic power, with more expensive spells more likely to work. In fact, reworking the resistance (crosses) to work like that could potentially unbreak the resistance spells. Crosses would increase the "counter magic" strenght, but mana spent on the spell would make it more likely to work.

A similiar problem is the total immunity that flight grants against units on foot.
In my current game I invaded a lair with guardian spirits with a unit of shadow demons. They were sitting ducks and could do absolutely nothing as foot units can´t touch flying units unless those close to melee combat.

That does not make sense to me. When units with throwing weapons can throw their axes and FORCE the flying unit to melee (instead of being able ONLY to attack with their throwing weapons) and even hell hounds can force melee combat with their bad breath - then every unit should be able to to at least something against flying units.
Perhaps attack at half strenght for using your halberds as improvised spears or such. But sitting still until the flying units pick you off one by one?

[b0rsuk]

A similiar problem is the total immunity that flight grants against units on foot.

I think the only reason this is an issue is that many flyers are very, very tough. Okay, cockatrices or gargoyles aren't. But chimeras, gorgons, wraiths and various drakes are certainly not weaker than walkers of comparable cost.

Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic, another of my favorite games, uses exactly the same system for flyers in tactical combat. Yet flyers rarely overpower other stuff, there are ways to deal with them. First of all, flyers are noticably more fragile than walkers of the same level. Second, units with polearms get a good (+3/+3) bonus against flyers. Then still can't attack flyers, but will defend against them very well. Third, archers in AoW: SM don't suck.

Another interesting solution that could be used:
In Fantasy General, archers can guard adjacent friendly units from attacks from the sky. If a skyhunter or bomber class unit attempts to attack a unit with archer nearby, archer gets automatic free retaliation. This solution could be used for halberdiers and archers (except it's very hard to implement in assembly and reverse engineering).

Even in Heroes of Might and Magic flying units are mostly weaker than walkers, and flyers can be attacked by everything in that game. MoM took no such precautions.

[ConjurerDragon]

I think the only reason this is an issue is that many flyers are very, very tough. Okay, cockatrices or gargoyles aren't. But chimeras, gorgons, wraiths and various drakes are certainly not weaker than walkers of comparable cost.

Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic, another of my favorite games, uses exactly the same system for flyers in tactical combat. Yet flyers rarely overpower other stuff, there are ways to deal with them. First of all, flyers are noticably more fragile than walkers of the same level. Second, units with polearms get a good (+3/+3) bonus against flyers. Then still can't attack flyers, but will defend against them very well. Third, archers in AoW: SM don't suck.

Another interesting solution that could be used:
In Fantasy General, archers can guard adjacent friendly units from attacks from the sky. If a skyhunter or bomber class unit attempts to attack a unit with archer nearby, archer gets automatic free retaliation. This solution could be used for halberdiers and archers (except it's very hard to implement in assembly and reverse engineering).

Even in Heroes of Might and Magic flying units are mostly weaker than walkers, and flyers can be attacked by everything in that game. MoM took no such precautions.

I don´t mind strong flyers - if they have the approbiate cost.
What I mind is that flyers are immune to groundtroops if they don´t initiate combat (or the opponent webs them) as in my example as 1 unit of shadowdemons wiped a lair full of guardian spirits who simply sat there doing nothing until they were all destroyed.

Edit: Sure Shadowdemons cost more than guardian spirits and they SHOULD be stronger than guardian spirits - but with the GS sitting there I could make full use of the regenerating to replenish the SD´s and kill of the GS´s one by one. Had the GS all attacked as one that might have ended otherwise.

Flying already is a good spell. Ignoring terrain completely and being able to cross water at a good speed is great. But treating flying as some kind of "sanctum" spell that makes it impossible to attack you (unless under specific circumstances)? That´s too much.

[b0rsuk]

I don´t mind strong flyers - if they have the approbiate cost.
What I mind is that flyers are immune to groundtroops if they don´t initiate combat (or the opponent webs them) as in my example as 1 unit of shadowdemons wiped a lair full of guardian spirits who simply sat there doing nothing until they were all destroyed.

The keyword here is regeneration. The same tactic is very popular with trolls, especially War Trolls who move faster than many other units. Very anticlimatic - the game mechanic encourages big, scary trolls to do hit&run tactics. If I were to have my way, regeneration would no longer regenerate any HP in battle. Only full healing at the end of each turn and "resurrection" at the end of battle if your side is winning. I believe this would also allow to lower the level of the spell to Uncommon. Regeneration is good, but overpriced, and Nature really needs good spells.

Wraiths and Death Knights are so powerful because you can exploit their "healing" to the fullest without risk of retaliation. Flyers who can't heal in battle are nowhere as powerful. Hydras also heal, but they're slow and it takes forever so it's mostly for after battle.

I used to have regenerating Phantom Warriors in my mod, but reverted the change. It was very fitting and creepy, but also a disgustingly powerful tool for a cheesy player in a game with bad AI.

I like the way flyers work in MoM. It's unique. I'm much more annoyed by a cheesy tactic where you use unreachable flyers to block bottlenecks like city walls. That's awful. That could be nicely fixed if each square could hold two units - ground and flying - like in Fantasy General.

[ConjurerDragon]

...

I like the way flyers work in MoM. It's unique. I'm much more annoyed by a cheesy tactic where you use unreachable flyers to block bottlenecks like city walls. That's awful. That could be nicely fixed if each square could hold two units - ground and flying - like in Fantasy General.

And in addition the zones of control of e.g. Alpha Centauri.

I hate seeing enemy units simply going around units at my border and heading to the next city. With a ZoC you could effectively control your border (unless you place a string of units along your entire border).

[b0rsuk]

And in addition the zones of control of e.g. Alpha Centauri.

I hate seeing enemy units simply going around units at my border and heading to the next city. With a ZoC you could effectively control your border (unless you place a string of units along your entire border).

Sure, lack of ZoC is probably why MoM doesn't have much movement speed variety. Increase movement speed in a mod and it starts feeling like Heroes of Might and Magic, where positioning (almost) doesn't matter. HoMM is notable for fast units speeds and no ZoC.

[Orcness]

Shuri's my favorite early hero: excellent for scouting, transporting settlers or other troops, and if developed, a great late-game skydrake-slayer.

Yuri is my favorite hero,once in a while she gets constitution, then she will survive magic nukes from the opposing wizard till late in the game and she can go all the way on to the endgame.
When she gets Blademaster plus, she can conquer lightly guarded ruins or a small neutral city almost right away. But she can die with her terrible defense, even with recruit level range fighters
As bad as that sounds she is pretty balanced,she can still die from one lightning nuke with constitution and any 2 other nuke almost, it's just unlikely.
And yet developed, she can even pierce through guardian wind,but just one or two units at a time in one stack,generally.
Sky drakes are a little susceptible to arrows and her and the dervish together developed, can take on a stack of five to seven sky drakes in my experience without being cheesy .
Message being I think she is balanced.

[Orcness]

Magic Immunity breaks the convention. All other "immunities" are not complete immunities, but rather very high resistances. Weapon Immunity increases shields to 10 unless magic weapons are involved. Strong ranged units can punch through Guardian Wind and various missile immunities.

It would be more fair if Magic Immunity granted something like +10 crosses, and a node-like counter magic power, with more expensive spells more likely to work. In fact, reworking the resistance (crosses) to work like that could potentially unbreak the resistance spells. Crosses would increase the "counter magic" strenght, but mana spent on the spell would make it more likely to work.

That is wrong,it has happened to me twice after playing since the beginning ,the opposing Warrax has broken through my magic immunity and killed Shuri with magic immune armor.I double checked at the time because I thought couldn't happen.
The problem is enemy Heroes and Champions don't develop equipment and don't usually get to very high levels.

[Orcness]

I'd like this thread to be used to discuss game balance principles and concepts (as they pertain to MoM) in this thread. Knock yourselves silly!

Really MoM is very simple. What you can do to the opposing Wizard the opposing Wizard can do to you.
That is the unique concept and principle of the game and mine as well.