Realms Beyond Werewolf 2 : Game Thread

[Gaspar]

Re-posting this rather than editing, so that I don't get mod-killed for fixing my mistake. :P

Tally:

Mayor:
4v: Lewwyn (Gaspar, Irgy, Rowain, Roland)
3v: Roland (Mr Nice Guy, haphazard1, uberfish)
1v: haphazard1 (Dantski)
1v: Sareln (Kyan)

No vote: Serdoa, Sareln

Not voted: scooter, Ug the Barbarian,sunrise

Lynch:
8v: Uberfish(haphazard1, Gaspar, Irgy, Dantski, Ug, Kyan, Serdoa, Sareln)
5v: Sareln (Uberfish, Lewwyn, Mr Nice Guy, scooter, Roland)


not voted: Rowain, sunrise

OOV:

1) Mr Nice Guy vote uberfish
2) Lewwyn votes uberfish
3) uberfish votes Sareln
4) haphazard1 votes uberfish
5) Serdoa votes Sareln
6) Gaspar votes uberfish
7) Sareln votes uberfish
8) Irgy votes uberfish
9) Dantski votes uberfish
10) Scooter votes Gaspar
11) Lewwyn switches to Scooter
12) Ug votes uberfish
13) scooter switches to uberfish
14) Serdoa switches to uberfish
15) Lewwyn switches to Sareln
16) Mr Nice Guy switches to Sareln
17) scooter switches to Sareln
18) Roland votes for Sareln

[Serdoa]

As for the Seer/Fool-discussion: Roland said that there is probably another Seer out there. I tell you the same thing. And you all think for a second about at which time Roland and I had the same "opinion". I am sure he is there.

Having said that, and though it is switching back and forth, I vote Sareln. I am rather accused for vote switching as not doing what I feel is best for the village.

[Rowain]

Bottom line, we have to have an actual, real dyed-in-the-wool seer. f&i said we had one in the game intro post, and while think to some extent he's making up the rules as he goes along, he can't tell us we have a seer in the game rules without giving us one.

This is in fact not true. Because the fool is secret role that not even the fool himself knows. The fool gets the same seer-pm a true seer would get.
He has to write 1 seer else the fool would immediatly know that he is the fool which would make the whole thing worthless

We *know* sunrise can't be a wolf, because the devil visited him, unless we don't believe the Owl, which is nonsense, since the Owl is how we found the Devil in the first place. So what does that leave sunrise as possibilities:

I think it still possible that the Owl is in reality a wolf trying to get a cosy place inmidst a safe network.

The wolves get to read the thread too. If I were a wolf, I'd absolutely not eat sunrise tonight if we lynch someone other than uberfish. Especially if we lynch Sareln and he turns out to be innocent. That way they get a villager kill today, they can let the discredited seer live tonight, and we still have the same argument tomorrow: We'll have a village divided over whether or not sunrise is the seer, which is a perfect opportunity to continue to sow discord and get us voting every which way but up.

I'm glad that you finally start to think for your own and start telling us your reasons. Oh and I agree with you

Here's the full breakdown on what our options are:

1. Lynch Uber and he's a wolf. Sunrise is confirmed as seer, gets eaten tonight by wolves.
2. Lynch Uber and he's a villager. Sunrise is confirmed as not-the-seer, some other target gets eaten tonight by wolves.
3. Lynch Sareln and he's a wolf. Sunrise gets eaten at night and is confirmed as seer by f&i. We unanimously lynch uberfish the next day.
4. Lynch Sareln and he's a villager. Sunrise gets eaten at night and is confirmed as seer by f&i in death. We unanimously lynch uberfish the next day.
5. Lynch Sareln and he's a wolf. Some other target gets eaten at night, and we have this same discussion tomorrow re: validity of seer, though we have lynched a wolf.
6. Lynch Sareln and he's a villager. Some other target gets eaten at night. We have the same discussion re: validity of seer, and are down a villager.

Although I agree with you I have one small nitpick: If 1) happens sunrise is NOT confirmed as seer. The fool can get it right too. Of course if sunrise dies his true role gets revealed.


One question: What has the 'Owl' seen last night?

Until I hear a good reason no to do it : uberfish

[Rowain]

Tally:

Mayor:
4v: Lewwyn (Gaspar, Irgy, Rowain, Roland)
3v: Roland (Mr Nice Guy, haphazard1, uberfish)
1v: haphazard1 (Dantski)
1v: Sareln (Kyan)

No vote: Serdoa, Sareln

Not voted: scooter, Ug the Barbarian,sunrise

Lynch:
8v: Uberfish(haphazard1, Gaspar, Irgy, Dantski, Ug, Kyan, Sareln, Rowain)
6v: Sareln (Uberfish, Lewwyn, Mr Nice Guy, scooter, Roland, Serdoa)


not voted: sunrise

OOV:
[noparse]
1) Mr Nice Guy vote uberfish
2) Lewwyn votes uberfish
3) uberfish votes Sareln
4) haphazard1 votes uberfish
5) Serdoa votes Sareln
6) Gaspar votes uberfish
7) Sareln votes uberfish
8) Irgy votes uberfish
9) Dantski votes uberfish
10) Scooter votes Gaspar
11) Lewwyn switches to Scooter
12) Ug votes uberfish
13) scooter switches to uberfish
14) Serdoa switches to uberfish
15) Lewwyn switches to Sareln
16) Mr Nice Guy switches to Sareln
17) scooter switches to Sareln
18) Roland votes for Sareln
19) Serdoa switches to Sareln
20) Rowain votes uberfish
[/noparse]

[Gaspar]

This is in fact not true. Because the fool is secret role that not even the fool himself knows. The fool gets the same seer-pm a true seer would get.
He has to write 1 seer else the fool would immediatly know that he is the fool which would make the whole thing worthless

I respectfully disagree. The game rules say we have a seer. He can include a fool, but we're promised a seer. If we don't have a seer, then he has lied in the game rules. We can all jump at shadows as much as we like, but that's fact. I think secretly roleblocking the baner is enough changing the rules of the game for one game. At least MJW deserved that. If we don't have a seer, we effectively got an owl (less powerful than a seer,) a baner and 2 masons in a game with at least 6 werewolves, including one confirmed devil. That's incredibly imbalanced towards team wolf. If we don't have a seer, this game is a farce and fire&ice is a liar, period.

I'm glad that you finally start to think for your own and start telling us your reasons. Oh and I agree with you

I've though for myself all game. I've been right no less often than you, but equally smugly, so we have that in common. '

Although I agree with you I have one small nitpick: If 1) happens sunrise is NOT confirmed as seer. The fool can get it right too. Of course if sunrise dies his true role gets revealed.

You guys jump at shadows way too much. If uberfish is a wolf, sunrise is the seer. Any conclusion otherwise is just sowing discord. It doesn't matter, if uberfish gets hung, sunrise will definitely get eaten.


Heh, we can't even really get along when we're on the same side.

[Kyan]

Sorry to everyone who PM'd me, my inbox was full. This has now been rectified.

More importantly, however, i need to stop this alarming slide towards Sareln. You're getting played and getting played badly.

Sareln, the PM you sent me, please feel free to post it in full as its true. Sareln has known about the owl since day 1 and yet he's still alive...

I urge you to vote uberfish. I fail to see how this is any different to last day phase when we went for Selrahc. Unfortunately, Roland has done his usual end of day panic attack and after some gentle prodding by a wolf, has allowed this self-doubt to manifest into believing a lie. Just so it's clear, Rolan is a villager. He's just wrong on this occasion. The wolves have finally succeeded in splitting us up by aiming at our obvious weak spot- Roland's lack of conviction.

Sareln has done *so* little to justify being a wolf yet you think he's a better bet than rolling the dice on uberfish? You know the wolves are trying to make it appear as if they're villagers too right? If anything, more hard than the villagers are. A villager knows he has nothing to prove, uber and crew do. It's perfectly normal and to be expected for him to start an anti-selrahc campaign because it was never going to go anywhere. Until the seer claim, Selrahc was never going to get lynched but if he eveer did then uber had build himself a nice defence.

Oh and Owl/Seer results:

Owl- watched Irgy who went nowhere. Villager.
Seer - scried Dantski. Villager

yeah im gonna upset other by posting that, but Irgy and Dantski, you know your true roles and therefore know if we have fools or not. Vote for uber and let's get another wolf kill.

[Sareln]

Sareln, the PM you sent me, please feel free to post it in full as its true. Sareln has known about the owl since day 1 and yet he's still alive...

Here's the quote:

I have an ace though, to prove my innocence. If I was a werewolf, the Owl would be dead on night 1, since MJW PM'd us (I and the owl) with his protection choice that night. The owl yet lives, and from that fact I draw proof of my innocence. Roland, since the Owl has contacted you, just ask him, he knows this.

[Lewwyn]

Sorry to everyone who PM'd me, my inbox was full. This has now been rectified.

More importantly, however, i need to stop this alarming slide towards Sareln. You're getting played and getting played badly.

Sareln, the PM you sent me, please feel free to post it in full as its true. Sareln has known about the owl since day 1 and yet he's still alive...

I urge you to vote uberfish. I fail to see how this is any different to last day phase when we went for Selrahc. Unfortunately, Roland has done his usual end of day panic attack and after some gentle prodding by a wolf, has allowed this self-doubt to manifest into believing a lie. Just so it's clear, Rolan is a villager. He's just wrong on this occasion. The wolves have finally succeeded in splitting us up by aiming at our obvious weak spot- Roland's lack of conviction.

Sareln has done *so* little to justify being a wolf yet you think he's a better bet than rolling the dice on uberfish? You know the wolves are trying to make it appear as if they're villagers too right? If anything, more hard than the villagers are. A villager knows he has nothing to prove, uber and crew do. It's perfectly normal and to be expected for him to start an anti-selrahc campaign because it was never going to go anywhere. Until the seer claim, Selrahc was never going to get lynched but if he eveer did then uber had build himself a nice defence.

First of all this is NOT the same as Selrahc. Selrahc was scried by the Owl, not by Sunrise. Sunrise himself has said there is a possibility he's the fool.

To address the issue of Sareln knowing the identity of the Owl from Day 1... by my recollection he only found out after Day 1, on Night 1. If I were a wolf and I wasn't sure whether the Owl was true or not, I wouldn't strike that first night. Who knows who else knows or whether its a trap to get me to kill a red herring. So they killed an easy target with little chance of backfiring.

Lets go to Night 2. Luddite is a mason and he's killed. Sareln knew he was a mason or suspected. Plus, Luddite sent a message to selrahc asking about the seer. Very large possibility that Sareln and Selrahc put that one together, no? So if you have a choice between an Owl who is contact with the baner, and you have a Mason who thinks he's safe, who is more likely to be protected by the baner? Also, who gives the bigger gain? You hit the Owl you kill a scrier that may or may not be believed. You kill a Mason you've killed half of a pair of a trsuted network and ended the Mason's ability to appeal to people in secrecy as a pair. So killing one Mason effectively destroys the mason's effectiveness.

So Night 2 is an easy choice. Go for the completely unprotected mason instead of the possibly protected Owl.

Night 3. Things are heating up you've got a possible seer, an owl and a baner. WWs need to end a scrier's life, but we as villagers don't know for sure whether sunrise is a seer or a fool. The WW's do though. They know that Sunrise splits our protection options. Get a chance to kill the baner? Well he's dead now.


Look Kyan you cannot bury your head in the sand here. How do you know you're not the one being played? The Owl and Baner were connected since the beginning. The wolves wouldn't take a risk so early in the game. They needed to thin our numbers first. This is exactly what they did in WW1. Uberfish even mentions that the Wolves spent a ton of time trying to avoid baner protection. You can not use Sareln's knowledge as proof!

[Lewwyn]

Here's the quote:

I have an ace though, to prove my innocence. If I was a werewolf, the Owl would be dead on night 1, since MJW PM'd us (I and the owl) with his protection choice that night. The owl yet lives, and from that fact I draw proof of my innocence. Roland, since the Owl has contacted you, just ask him, he knows this.

NO cannot be used in evidence. MJW is COMPLETELY unreliable as a witness here. He was attempting to set traps on everyone. I doubt he ever did anything he said he would.

To prove this trap setting: MJW tried to trap someone by telling them that Luddite was a mason. He did this without any knowledge that Luddite was in fact a mason, he actually believed that luddite was just a villager. He did this without luddite's permission. He outright lied (thought told the truth unwittingly) to try and get this person to kill Luddite and prove that this person was a wolf. Its so insane and downright frightening because luddite was in fact a mason and MJW was unwittingly outing him and revealing him. Stupid, stupid move.

You cannot trust that Sareln was told the correct protection. And even more importantly knowing this story, would Sareln ever trust MJW to tell the truth about the protection? If I were Sareln and I were a wolf, I'd keep my eye on the situation and have my wolfish brethren simply kill an easy target that has no chance of being protected.

Come on Kyan. Don't feed me this as complete truth.

[Serdoa]

Wow, Kyan, let me get this straight:

1) On Day one the Masons contacted Roland because they somehow knew he is a villager - what you still claim and I still don't know why you are so sure about that.

2) On Day one Sareln knew already who the Owl is - even that no one knew that this role even exists.

3) On Day 2 the Owl contacts Luddite, because he knew - though no one else did - that he is a Mason.

4) On Day 3 the Owl contacts sunrise, because again he knew - even that no one else did and sunrise didn't even post anything to judge him by - that he is the Seer.

5) Even better, it is claimed that Selrahc visited on Night 2 sunrise and that he was observed doing that and therefore is the Devil. Now, appearantly it was the truth, but how could ANYONE know that? Because lets look at the facts

- Night 1: sunrise does nothing
- Night 1: Owl does whatever
- Night 1: Selrahc does whatever

We can reasonably assume that the Owl didn't follow Selrahc, otherwise someone has to explain to me why he followed him the next night again (though it doesn't matter for this anyway). And as sunrise didn't do anything, the Owl would get the information "didn't leave" and therefore would see him as normal villager.

- Night 2: sunrise visits uberfish
- Night 2: Selrahc visits sunrise
- Night 2: Owl follows Selrahc

Now look at those facts. After Night 2, no one could have any idea that sunrise is the Seer. The Owl could only know that Selrahc visited someone. Think about it, the Seer and the Devil give the EXACT SAME result for the Owl "He visited xxx".

So the Owl knew EVERY other power-role nearly from Day 1 on. Even when some of those didn't post anything at all. Thats already nearly impossible and I am worried about it but it gets better, because Sareln knew on day 1 about a role which most others didn't even find information about on the internet.

I don't say I trust your information Kyan - but I really want to get explanation on that. Not names or anything, I don't care, I want to understand how it is possible that someone somehow knew already on Day 1 about all roles in this game...