Werewolf 3 Game Thread

[Rowain]

OOC

Some thoughts about lynches in this game. We have 5 wolves among us 23. This means we can make 6 villagerlynches and still win.

I think using 2-3 lynches to remove people who are not really helping (be it the content of their post or the number of their posts) is a good way for the village.

We don't have any secret networks here the more is it necessary to have lots of communication and understandable posts.

(Roleplaying is still nice and encouraged but don't forget the real thing over it)

[MJW (ya that one)]

Sit down and calm down us villages should not be cheating to get what we want I mean come on none of us realy have anything to do so their is no reason for you to bother complaining about this.



And this from left field in either the wrong thread or completely off topic is why people are chosing to lycnh you.

MJW for now young padawn

I think the rules are far to good for the wolfs. We have to take everything in order to stand a chance. There is not much to talk about other then the metagame and Bob opened up my post about what I did about ww2. Metagaming is not cheating. You seem to want to keep everyone under control.

You seem to really think that I am a villager but I have done nothing to show that. You may have been informed that I was a villager.

Every lych matters a lot. I will not waste a village lych later in the game because I look like a werewolf and read the thread. If you check out the post write after I died in ww2 my list had a lot of werewolfs in it. In the post game thread if MNG or Irgy gets lyched are villagers and the town loses by one lych I will bring this up.

I will not role claim a power role in this game because I am not a powerrole.

[Ichabod]

OOC

Some thoughts about lynches in this game. We have 5 wolves among us 23. This means we can make 6 villagerlynches and still win.

I think using 2-3 lynches to remove people who are not really helping (be it the content of their post or the number of their posts) is a good way for the village.

We don't have any secret networks here the more is it necessary to have lots of communication and understandable posts.

I don't agree with these thoughts. Lynching quiet people may be worth because of the chance of them being a werewolf, but not because they don't post.

As for unhelpful posting content, like I said, we could just not pay attention to it.

We need to have in mind that every villager is better alive than dead, since they will count as villagers for the sake of determining who wins.

Just because we can lynch 6 villagers and still win, doesn't mean we should waste those lynches in bad villagers. Better to try and catch a wolf instead.


Fire&Ice, novice and Meiz are the more likely to be villagers to me. Why? Because they voted themselves as mayors. Being mayor is not a good position for a wolf, IMO. Too much exposure, even in a no PM game. What do you guys think about it?

[fire&ice]

Fire&Ice, novice and Meiz are the more likely to be villagers to me. Why? Because they voted themselves as mayors. Being mayor is not a good position for a wolf, IMO. Too much exposure, even in a no PM game. What do you guys think about it?

Well I don't realy agree with the mayor point although I prolly shouldn't say anything. We could vote for ourselfs all we wanted yet we would not be mayor because somone else out there I don't remember the votes right now has a block of 4 or more. Thus, I atleast was voteing for myself more a laughter rather then the possibility of being mayor.

Basicly none of us stand a chance of being mayor so it makes us look good but does not put us out in the open yet.

[Serdoa]

Ichabod, I think Rowain meant that it makes sense to lynch quiet or unhelpful villagers if there is nothing else to go for. Of course if there is strong evidence for a wolf, we would vote for a wolf. But if there is not then lynching an unhelpful villager makes more sense then voting randomly and hoping to guess right. Especially if we let the wolves also act and don't make it to easy for them to pile on someone.

As for the mayoral self-votes: I don't think that really helps to determine it. Yes, it would be bad for a wolf to be in this spot but there is no out of thread communication. That means that even if a wolf gets mayor AND gets scried by the seer chances are high that the seer won't tell us because of the high risk he has to put himself into. Especially combined with the Fool he can't even be sure that he did get a correct scry. All put together I don't think that everyone who votes for himself is a villager, not even high probability for it.
Also it could be a nice ploy for a wolf to vote himself for mayor. I mean with so many players chances are high that he won't get elected. Especially when he can ask the other wolves to vote for someone else.

[uberfish]

The mayor position is more valuable to wolves in a no-PM game imo. Being mayor led to the downfall of selrahc in WW2, but that was because he had a wolf power role, got scanned, and the owl could expose him anonymously (Well ok, the "secure" network was actually rather leaky, but that's besides the point.)

So I think nominating oneself for mayor is not evidence for being a villager. In fact, I would prefer that someone who did NOT nominate themselves become mayor.

[Ichabod]

Self-voting mayor issue:

Yes, I may be underestimating the consequences of a no PM game.

But, let me try to explain my logic, which I didn't do in the previous post. Even in a no-PM game, being scried is something every wolf will try to avoid. The seer will reveal itself sometime and we can get very important information based on his posts (even if he got killed by a random night kill before revealing himself).

Let's see the exemple of sunrise on WW2. First he scried uberfish, because he wanted someone to talk about the game (I'm guessing they are good friends outside of the game) that he could trust. After that, he scried selrahc.

This game, a trusted network has no use. So every scry should be used to try to find wolves, not to clearing a villager to join the network. So, when deciding who to scry in the first night, since there won't be many suspects by then, the mayor is the villager most likely to be scried.

So, like I said, even in a no PM game, wolves don't want to be scried and would do anything to avoid it... IMO, of course.

That being said, I definetely underestimated the fool role, because I didn't remind about it when I posted my comment. It makes my comment look even worst, but doesn't invalidate my argument that we will discover the seer someday (by claiming or lynching/killing) and the consequences of it.

Admitedely, it was not a happy comment. And of course, any self vote after my comment doesn't get the same treatment as the ones before it, since my comment changed the conditions...


Lynching of unhelpful villagers issue:

Of course is better to lynch the unhelpful/silent villagers if we don't have any other option (i.e. everybody has the same werewolf suspicion percentage), especially since if we all vote for no lynch, Sareln will lynch someone randomly.

But this is very, very unlikely to happen. And I'm still upset about the MJW bandwagon, which is based on Rowain's/Ubefish's logic.

For instance, Lewwyn's commentary, highlited by Sandover makes me a little (and you can underline this) suspicious of him. So, I'd prefer to vote for him than some quiet/unhelpful villager.

But I get what you guys are trying to say... If the evidence against someone is very, very frail, maybe it's still better to lynch the the unhelpful/quiet guy, even if he doesn't have any suspicions against him (so, it'd be better to lynch MJW than Lewwyn)...

Sincerely, I'm not sure. But leaving the theory field and coming down to experience, the MJW vote seems to me like the waste of a day for us (and another night kill, of course), the way it's being handled (without most of the people voting for him giving any explanation about it).

[scooter]

For what it's worth about the whole meta-gaming by camping a profile to see who is PM'ing... As someone who played a wolf last game, I personally think if the wolves are foolish enough to use PM, then I don't feel too bad if they get caught that way. Granted, I think meta-gaming like that is kind of cheesy, but in this case I wouldn't feel all that bad for the wolves.

Good news is that MJW is definitely not our baner, since with the amount of votes he has, he definitely would have claimed it by now.

[Irgy]

Some thoughts about lynches in this game. We have 5 wolves among us 23. This means we can make 6 villagerlynches and still win.

I think using 2-3 lynches to remove people who are not really helping (be it the content of their post or the number of their posts) is a good way for the village.

I couldn't disagree more with this. Ok, if we've got nothing to go on pick people who are good to lynch for other reasons, fine. We want to lynch players who'd make good wolves and bad villagers in that case. But saying we can waste lynches to kill off villagers we don't like is ridiculous. The Roland lynch was only one lynch that kind of fits that description in WW2, and it would have cost the village the game if it wasn't for Serdoa's mistake. The 6 village lynches are our buffer for making mistakes and bad guesses, and we're going to make plenty.

Metagaming is not cheating.

Yes, it is cheating. Every single metagaming action in existance either:
* Is explicitly against the rules and considered cheating.
* Is explicitly worked around to avoid the need to make a rule against it.
* Would be explicitly written into the rules as cheating if anyone had thought of it yet.

The fact is, any form of metagaming is an entirely undesirable element. The more we can separate the constraints of the medium in which we play the game from the game itself the better. What we want to play is werewolf, not some unique metagame realms-beyond-embedded-werewolf that encompasses the forum and all its quirks.

Hacking the website to find the role pms isn't disallowed under the rules either, but you know what, it's still cheating. Just stick to the game we're playing.

I will not role claim a power role in this game because I am not a powerrole.

Great. Here's an idea, why don't all the people who aren't power roles announce the fact. That way the wolves will have a really hard time working out who to kill at night. I mean you could be faking it, but I strongly suspect you're not. It's only about 1/10th as bad as revealing yourself un-necessarily as a power role, but it's still a silly move.



On the whole, I don't think we should lynch MJW for one simple reason. Putting voting pressure on a few different people during day 1 forces them to react and gives us information. Stacking votes on one arbitrary player resigns us to a pure 5/23 shot at a wolf and gains us no information in the process. It's just a bad move for the village. So, I'm as happy to lynch MJW as the next guy, but I'm picking fire&ice as someone who might be able to catch up in votes and at least give us a choice.

I also don't actually think MJW is such a bad asset for the village. He might be wrong 80% of the time, but behind his bad communication and ethical difficulties he's actually fairly clever. He's quite creative, and can be a real source of ideas if you can just separate the garbage from the hidden gems.

[Bobchillingworth]

On the whole, I don't think we should lynch MJW for one simple reason. Putting voting pressure on a few different people during day 1 forces them to react and gives us information. Stacking votes on one arbitrary player resigns us to a pure 5/23 shot at a wolf and gains us no information in the process. It's just a bad move for the village. So, I'm as happy to lynch MJW as the next guy, but I'm picking fire&ice as someone who might be able to catch up in votes and at least give us a choice.

While I understand your reasoning here, I worry about the possible consequences of putting pressure on too many people for the sake of seeing how they react under duress. My main concern is that we could end up accidentally causing a power role villager to reveal themselves in a bid to escape the noose. If MJW is to be believed, he has already revealed his own role, and this with only 6 votes on him. Not everyone is as panicky as MJW, but I think it's a risky strategy regardless. Plus it's not like a wolf will break down and confess if votes start going their way, especially with potentially five wolf votes to balance out any "heat" applied to them. It makes more sense to me to employ your tactic when we have voting records and other data to actually press people on & force them to justify.