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Serdoa Wrote:I find it kinda funny how my request that we lynch Rowain if PB is innocent was discarded and now we even start to call him innocent. What exactly did he do to be innocent? I don't buy the whole "He is on a crusade, no wolf would that." for a simply reason: Rowain stated that it is best to play a villager when you are a wolf. What better way to play a villager then to go on a crusade?
How about using just the slightest bit of logic before you post? If Rowain is a 'Wolf, his crusade against pocketbeetle, IF pocketbeetle is a Villager, is tantamount to suicide. He would have no way of knowing ahead of time that we would eventually think him innocent based upon his accusations, therefore it would be foolish to attempt - which of course is not a guarantee that a 'Wolf wouldn't do it (ala Uberfish in WW2), just that it would be ridiculously illogical.
Now, here's a better theory for you: if Rowain is a 'Wolf, his crusade makes equal sense as though he were a Villager. He would know pocketbeetle is a 'Wolf, and therefore sacrificing his comrade would be the perfect way to gain the Village's trust. It would explain his lack of reasoning behind his conviction, and pocketbeetle's subsequent call to arms against Rowain. This is, of course, HIGHLY speculatory, but it's worth mentioning. If that were the case (and I stress that it's unlikely, though more so than Rowain being a 'Wolf and pocketbeetle being a Villager) Rowain would get a free pass, until such time as his voting record caught up with him. He'd have to convince the other 'Wolves not to lynch him in retribution, however, which may be more difficult than assumed. After all, even though they're on the same team, it's rare for them to work together so completely - at least, from what I've been told by former 'Wolves. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Anyway, this is all idle speculation.
scooter Wrote:Apologies to you Roland about the voting issue I mentioned last night. In my defense, your vote was like 150 posts ago, so I seriously just totally forgot.  
No worries at all - I didn't take offense. Believe me, I was just as surprised to see I had over 100 posts as of last night. This game does seem to be flying along at a much faster pace than the last, especially with posting.
scooter Wrote:The PB/Rowain thing makes me a little antsy... Here's the scenarios for this:
1. Both are wolves - This seems highly unlikely. Both Rowain and PB would make good wolves, and good wolves wouldn't do this.
2. PB is a wolf - Then we are in luck, and are on track to lynch a wolf. Very possible.
3. Rowain is a wolf - Then we are about to lynch the total wrong guy. Thing is, if we lynch PB and he is innocent, we can't necessarily just lynch Rowain the next day, because option 4:
4. Both are innocent. This scares me... This is why I will be sticking with JKaen and I will not be voting for either PB or Rowain, regardless of what happens. It seems odd that Rowain could be guilty, but I also think the case against PB is bizarre - as in I don't think it actually exists. This is why I am steering clear of both sides right now and voting for JKaen.
Also, I am going to be gone for the next 6ish hours, so I will not be around at the deadline for the mass vote swapping that could occur, so I will be on JKaen for the remainder of the day.
Echoing my thoughts pretty well, although I'm not sure if I'd be more surprised to find them both 'Wolves, or both Villagers. In any case, what drives me towards pocketbeetle the most is his stubborn refusal to mount any sort of credible defense. We've seen 'Wolves do this numerous times (Selrahc twice now, although the first time he really didn't have much choice - Owl scry and all), but very rarely if ever for a Villager. Lewwyn put it very well: it'd be one thing if he called the arguments against him a fallacy and posted why, but he doesn't. He just dismisses them out of hand without a single shred of evidence to counter them, only "You're wrong, and also stupid." Not a very convincing defense, in my opinion. Even when I was on the block with Lewwyn at my throat last game, I didn't just take it idly. I didn't fight it well, but Lewwyn gave me no real way out - he would spin anything I said against me no matter what, and there was enough disapproval built up against me to mirror what we saw in this game with MJW. However, I still posted a fair amount, and gave at least an attempt at a defense (albeit not a very heart-filled one).
Bottom line, Rowain never convinced me about pocketbeetle, he just stirred the pot. It was pocketbeetle's response that decided it for me, just as with Selrahc (it wasn't the accusation, it was the defense - or lack thereof). Anyway, we'll know in just over two hours.
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Ichabod Wrote:I find it funny that Lewwyn said a few posts back that he voted for MJW because he didn't like MJW. I spent the whole first day trying to understand why Lewwyn thought MJW was a wolf (he justified his votes by saying he thought so) and now he says he didn't think MJW was one in the first place.
I don't think Lewwyn is a wolf right now. A little suspicious, but no so much. My problem with this is because it's harmful to the village to have villagers thinking that they are always right and forgetting the wrong things they did. Hell, Lewwyn actually said that it was good to lynch Roland in WW2
Well, its all true. Lemme explain how it went down. Day 1 I started in on MJW, as the day went through I was beginning to feel he was more villager like (plus I was being bombarded with votes because of it) so I backed off MJW. I voted for Cull. Now I did not expect that run on Cull. My vote on him was more of placeholder/pressure to talk more type of thing. We get down to the end and suddenly its between Cull and MJW! I actually wanted to switch to PB at the end but he didn't have enough votes with my vote to make a difference. I was suspicious of the swing on Cull, I didn't think he was a wolf (Not one person breathed a word of defense for him). ANd I didn't think the wolves would sell one of their out on the first day. So between him and MJW I thought there was a greater chance MJW was wolf(ever so slightly) and if he was innocent he was potentially a smaller loss and even, dare I say, a good kill for reasons Irgy had stated earlier regarding his lightning rod status. SO there you go for that.
As for Roland in WW2... it worked out in the end. Whether it was or not Villagers won. And even if you haven't been wrong about a person yet, you will be unless you're a wolf with a cheat sheet.
Ichabod Wrote:I didn't like the tone of the PB vs. Roland/Lewwyn discussion some posts back. It seemed more like a fight over who is the most intelligent/valuable player in the game. It didn't benefit the village at all.
Even though the 3 players should be blamed, PB's case gets worst. He seems to avoid any kind of constructive discussions and prefers to attack the person who gave the reasoning, not the reasoning itself. Based on this, I wouldn't mind lynching PB, even though I'm not nearly sure that he's a wolf.
Also, his case against Rowain wasn't very solid and he never answered any of our questions regarding it. I still can't believe that so many people voted Rowain based on that. It's like if the theory had more strenght just because PB said it.
Agreed with all of the above, but I will say I always answered people's disagreements and I always attempted to respond to everyone about my reasons for everything. PB was simply dismissive. I attempted to goad him into response after that, but he decided to ignore me. Perfectly fine except that it only makes him more suspicious that he wouldn't respond. I think it was funny that Roland was sticking up for me. I get the Older brother vibe there, sort of a , "no one picks on my kid brother but me!" kind of thing.
“The wind went mute and the trees in the forest stood still. It was time for the last tale.”
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Rowain Wrote:If we only vote based on hard evidence only the wolves can vote (and in case of each other the Masons). Nobody else has any case of hard evidence. We have suspicions and indications but no hard evidence what so ever. To ask bluntly what was your hard evidence against Cull on day1?
You're splitting hairs at this point, but yes, it's impossible for the Village to have true "hard" evidence in the traditional sense. That doesn't change the FACT that there is good evidence and bad evidence and fake evidence. You know, for someone who's being defended by me actively you sure take an offensive tone towards me.
Rowain Wrote:I have to make a solid case vs PB???? He is the one we have the best indication of all people. Every villager is throwing around his suspicions and his votes like a who** her favors but I'm required to make a hard case? Against the one we have the best case? I think I have outlined why he should be high on the targetlist especially now after day2.
Unless I've missed something in your posting, no. YOU have not made a solid case against pocketbeetle, and certainly not from Day 1 on. As I've said several times now, your accusations of him served to bring him into the spotlight - whereupon he did absolutely nothing to prove his defense. THAT is the case against him, the one which I've pointed out, the one which drew me to lynch him. You indirectly made a case against him, but nothing you've pointed to - short of him being saved by votes twice now, which is circumstantial at this point, unfortunately - makes a hard case, in my mind. You're free to disagree, but that's my opinion. It doesn't change the fact that I agree with you in his guilt - or did you miss that part?
As for your point about people "whoring" their votes out, I couldn't agree more. I understand the validity and need to keep pressure on multiple people, and force people to come out of their shells, but when you only have 1 or 2 votes against you it's hardly a convincing argument. If we didn't have any halfway decent suspects on the board I'd say go wild, but we have at least 2, if not 3 potentially good suspects to choose from. Trying to draw in half a dozen others only muddies the waters at this point, and thins out the pressure.
Rowain Wrote:If you don't agree, fine thats your right to do but don't talk nonsense of hard evidence. We don't get the luxury of hard evidence.
Splitting hairs. I know damn well that if this goes south you're going to want people to look at "hard evidence" as to why they should lynch you, instead of just raw emotion, so don't give me that bullshit. You're not helping your case any should you be proven wrong, and even if you're proven right you'll still be under suspicion for being a traitor 'Wolf. You might want to think about that before you go crusading against ME - someone who's defended you and agrees with your suspicion of pocketbeetle - about what constitutes "hard evidence". I don't need to get into a pissing contest over semantics. Find something better to do.
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The bowyer wants the vintner to fence
"Show me your hard evidence!" (if you know what I mean)
But they both agree the stablehand should die
Never mind why, just hang him high!
Ease up, guys. 
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zakalwe Wrote:The bowyer wants the vintner to fence
"Show me your hard evidence!" (if you know what I mean)
But they both agree the stablehand should die
Never mind why, just hang him high!
Ease up, guys.
Roland's on a roll, he's taking on all comers at the moment. Best just to let the fire burn out, but with Rowain, Serdoa and Scooter all replying... well lets just say this is going to go on a while.
“The wind went mute and the trees in the forest stood still. It was time for the last tale.”
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Rowain Wrote:If we only vote based on hard evidence only the wolves can vote (and in case of each other the Masons). Nobody else has any case of hard evidence. We have suspicions and indications but no hard evidence what so ever. To ask bluntly what was your hard evidence against Cull on day1?
I forgot to address this last line in my last post. I voted for Cull for two reasons. 1) I didn't feel MJW was a 'Wolf, and that the Village was wasting their time (although, in hindsight, I do believe it allows us to be more focused - less distractions; not sure that I agree with the lynch, but I can at least agree it creates less chaos). 2) Cull was virtually silent up to that point. I'd rather lynch someone who is not going to be an asset to the Village on Day 1, when we have virtually nothing to go by, than lynch someone I strongly suspect was a Villager. After Day 1 I had no intentions of lynching Cull, which turned out to be an accurate assessment.
Why even bring this up? What are you looking for? Do you think I'm a 'Wolf, or is this just a continuation of the hate-filled infatuation you had with me from the last game?
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Zzzz.
So much crap being posted, particularly by this Rowain/Lewwyn/Roland triumvirate.
Some are saying I haven't defended myself (how can I defend myself when there is no case to defend against?), some are saying I've "ironically made the case against myself" (translation: Roland convincing himself) etc etc etc.
Serdoa is pretty much the only one of you making sense, so I wouldn't start criticising his logic if I were you Roland.
Anyway, my vote is forced, but I'm still probably going to hang.
Mr Nice Guy
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Roland Wrote:Splitting hairs. I know damn well that if this goes south you're going to want people to look at "hard evidence" as to why they should lynch you, instead of just raw emotion, so don't give me that bullshit. You're not helping your case any should you be proven wrong, and even if you're proven right you'll still be under suspicion for being a traitor 'Wolf. You might want to think about that before you go crusading against ME - someone who's defended you and agrees with your suspicion of pocketbeetle - about what constitutes "hard evidence". I don't need to get into a pissing contest over semantics. Find something better to do.
A) If we lynch PB and he stay villager I will not defend myself against a lynch next day. I have stated that I expect that to be the prize of failure.
B) Especially you should not lecture people about good, bad or fake evidence. You the man who defended a seer-screend wolf (is there any harde evidence possible?) and wanted to lynch a villager instead.
C) I appreciate that you defended me but rest assured if I ever get the impression that you are a wolf it will not hold my hand.
PS:
Roland Wrote:Why even bring this up? What are you looking for? Do you think I'm a 'Wolf, or is this just a continuation of the hate-filled infatuation you had with me from the last game? To ask you for your hard evidence you were talking about  . And as with PB I have no hatred against you . Not here and not in WW2.
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Lynch:
7v: pocketbeetle ( Rowain, Roland, Meiz, Irgy, Lewwyn, Bruindane, sandover )
4v: Mr. Nice Guy ( zakalwe, novice, JKaen, pocketbeetle )
3v: Jkaen ( fire&ice, Mr. Nice Guy, scooter )
2v: Rowain (Serdoa, Mardoc )
1v: Lewwyn ( Gold Ergo Sum )
Not Voting:
Ichabod
95 minutes remaining.
I have to run.
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pocketbeetle Wrote:Zzzz.
So much crap being posted, particularly by this Rowain/Lewwyn/Roland triumvirate.
Some are saying I haven't defended myself (how can I defend myself when there is no case to defend against?), some are saying I've "ironically made the case against myself" (translation: Roland convincing himself) etc etc etc.
Serdoa is pretty much the only one of you making sense, so I wouldn't start criticising his logic if I were you Roland.
Anyway, my vote is forced, but I'm still probably going to hang.
Mr Nice Guy
Gotta agree with pocketbeetle here. Can people stop discussing who makes the best villager and explain to me why we are lynching pocketbeetle today?
What is the evidence against him, apart from not defending against unspoken allegations? Sounds like McCarthyism at its best to me.
I have to run.
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