[SPOILERS-PBEM15] One Noob and his Helper - v8mark and Kyan are Darius of HRE

[v8mark]

My first spoiler thread! I'm so excited. If you're in either PBEM14 or PBEM15, now is the time to either move your mouse somewhere else or hit the back button.

[v8mark]

OK, so first of all, an introduction and some very general thoughts.

So I'm v8mark, which is a very old username that I'd probably change if given the chance - some of you may know me better as Terror Incognita from the RB LoL scene. Although LoL was the game that got me active within the community, I've been a Civ player for a lot longer, and have lurked variously at Apolyton, CFC and RB for the last several years. I've been playing Civ4 on and off since shortly after it came out, and have reached Immortal level on SP - this is my first meaningful MP experience.

Kyan is someone who's a lot more experienced than me MP-wise, and I'll be taking plenty of advice from him throughout the game.

So an indication of why I picked Darius would seem to be in order:

Settings were: snake pick, only one of Fin/Exp/Cre/Phi per leader, unrestricted, no Inca/India.

Fortunately, I got the fifth pick in the snake, which allowed me to maximise synergy between leader and civ. Either first of fifth is best, IMO - first allows you free rein in terms of leader, fifth allows you to take the best combination, rather than simply the best leader and civ, of whatever's left. So the combination of Darius and HRE was born.



So why Darius?

Financial is both the best trait in the game bar none, and the one with which I'm most experienced bar none. Three Fin leaders are banned; I think Mansa would have been my first pick in terms of absolute leader, as Spiritual is also an excellent trait - that went very quickly, however. Hannibal was also another very good shout - Financial paired with what is considered a middling trait in Charismatic, although I like it a lot. That also went straight away, though, which left very few other choices if I wanted to go Financial:

• Fin/Exp (Pacal), Fin/Cre (Willem) and Fin/Phi (Liz) are all banned
  
• Fin/Cha (Hannibal) and Fin/Spi (Mansa) had both gone
  
• which leaves Fin/Org (Darius), Fin/Imp (Vicky), Fin/Pro (Wang), Fin/Agg (Ragnar) and Fin/Ind (Capac)

Of those, I only considered Darius and Huayna Capac to be at all viable.

Darius was a little bit of a gamble - I'm not sure what difficulty level we'll be on (it's up to plako) and, of course, Organised becomes much more useful the higher in levels you go. For a pick of Organised to pay off over Industrious, I think the difficulty level probably has to be Monarch or above.

However, the other reason I went for Darius was simply synergy. A UB like the Rathaus, considered by many to be the best in the game, was a compelling reason to go Organised and abuse the fact that I get them half-price. There simply wasn't the synergy available with Huayna Capac; I think, if pushed, I would have done what TT did and paired him with Mali for half-price mints. But the mint as a UB sucks, so that wouldn't have been worth it. The HRE UU is also better than Mali's, IMO (and doesn't require a dead-end tech like Archery to use, either).

In short, I consider Darius to be one of the best leaders in the game. His two traits both help economically, particularly on higher difficulties. He doesn't get any hammer bonuses to speak of, but the vast gains in commerce from both Fin and Org make him very strong.

Time to look at my opponents!

Twinkletoes89: Huayna Capac (Fin/Ind) of Mali (Skirmisher/Mint)



The first thing to note about TT is that he and Kyan know each other quite well. He's played in both PBEM3 and PBEM7 and... didn't cover himself in glory during those games. Overall I expect him to be a bit of a wildcard - it's tempting to think he'll be a pushover, having made some very large (and very public) mistakes in previous games. But I'm sure he'll have learned from them, and of course he has far, far more MP experience than I do, so I think he's one to watch out for.

His pick is reasonable. I said above that Capac would have been my second choice for leader of those that were left, and if I'd gone with him I'd probably have paired him with Mali. Having said that, I'm glad I got the pick I did. The Skirmisher may be useful for an early choke, but requires teching Archery to get there, which may be sub-optimal assuming the existence of early horses and/or copper. The Mint is not a great UB, however, even if he does get it half price. It's basically a forge that gives you an extra coin or two once in a while, if you're running 0% gold for a couple of turns. It's really not worth very much extra at all.

Another thing to note is that Twinkletoes has had, in previous games, a predilection for shinies. As one of only two Ind civs in the game, this has its implications. Of course, he's also Fin, like 80% of the leaders in this game.

Ioan76 - Louis (Cre/Ind) of Byzantium (Cataphract/Hippodrome)



Louis? Really?! I was entirely puzzled by this pick. At least he took Byzantium, which is a very useful civ simply for its UU. Cataphracts are the best mounted UU in the game, and given that in MP, mounted units take on higher significance... yeah, that's a good pick. But I'm thoroughly confused by Louis. He's Cre, which is decent, and Ind, which... isn't so decent given that he has few economic bonuses. I really don't like this leader pick. He's also the only non-Fin leader in the game, which is a significant disadvantage, especially with NTT.

Having said that, I know very little about the player, so perhaps he's trying to handicap himself because he knows he's much better than all of us.

Jkaen - Hannibal (Fin/Cha) of Zulu (Impi/Ikhanda)



I like Hannibal. The combination of Financial and bigger early cities is a potent one early on. Charismatic tails off towards the end of the game, though, despite the XP bonus. But still, this will be strong early, and a good Hannibal player may well have a lead by the time the AD years roll around.

Zulu is a little bit more puzzling - the obvious reason he's done this is for the UB, which is like a Rathaus-lite. I imagine he would probably have taken HRE had it still been available. However, it's a slightly annoying UB, because a Barracks is not something you build in every city anyway, unlike the Courthouse. Further, not being Aggressive, he doesn't even get it half-price, which makes it 40 hammers or so to put into every city that other players won't.

The UU is somewhat nice for mobility if you can get early copper. They have a hard counter in axes, though, and any mobility advantage is lost in enemy territory, so its use will be primarily defensive.

Again, I know nothing about the player.

Piet - Mansa Musa (Fin/Spi) of Ottomans (Janissary/Hammam)



Mansa is the strongest standalone leader available in this game, IMO. The combination of Spi and Fin gives economic potency with flexibility. Spi becomes stronger as the game progresses, too.

The Ottomans is a somewhat strong civ; its UB is strong, although again an Aqueduct isn't something you would normally build, while if he can get to Gunpowder early enough (which, as Mansa, he might) Janissaries are also decently strong.

Again, I know nothing about the player.

Kyan - feel free to add your thoughts on life, the universe and everything as you see fit. To any and all lurkers - welcome along. I hope this will be a worthwhile read, and your input is highly encouraged.

[v8mark]

So. It's not as cut and dried as I hoped it would be. I'm going to post this here for now and see what Kyan thinks.

My instinct is to move 1E. That gets more river tiles in our BFC, which we'll need as we're financial. It has the makings of an excellent cottage capital, with 9 grassland cottages, a handful of hills and some extra food. There's also some extra space for plains river cottages if needed. My instinct is to get an academy here ASAP.

In addition, 1E gives us more options for using the crabs to the NW, depending on what's there.

I don't particularly see a big enough advantage to lose a turn anywhere, and I don't want to lose the wheat. 1N is clearly out, being one tile off the coast, which makes in place or 1E the only options. From what I can see, moving 1E:

• gains 2 forest riverside grassland, 1 riverside grassland hill, 1 irrigated riverside and 1 peak (boo)
  
• loses 1 riverside grassland, 1 riverside grassland hill, 1 plains, 1 grassland hill, 1 forested grassland

I just feel like 1E is better, despite the peak.

Tech seems fairly cut and dried, however: we start with Mysticism and Hunting, so we'll have to do the major groundwork ourselves. Tech order will be Ag, AH, Mining, BW. The first two are set in stone - the next two are almost set in stone unless a flash of inspiration occurs within the next ten turns.

In other exciting news:

Difficulty level is Prince
This kind of sucks. I wanted a higher one than that, to use Organized properly. However, it does mean we can REX until we run out of land, without heed to economic problems.

Barbs are off
This is good, as we start with a scout, which is superior to a warrior for scouting without barbs in the game.

Map settings are Tropical, high sea level
So expect plenty of bananas. And about the right amount of space for 5 players.

Seeing as I'm back so late tonight, I'll hold this until the morning then send it, hopefully once Kyan's had a look and can confirm I've not suddenly lost the ability to play civ.

[Kyan]

I vote you move the scout 1N then either 1NW or 1N depending on what he reveals with the first move. If there's nothing insanely good out there, i'd definitely move 1E and settle. It was my first instinct also and i feel it would be the best move. It also brings the wheat into our initial 9 tiles meaning we can work it until borders pop.

I don't have that email i sent earlier so feel free to copy that into the thread should you want to. I agree with the tech order and would definitely stick with those 4 in that order.

[v8mark]

Thanks Kyan - good to know my instincts are close to the mark at least.

Something interesting to note is that TT didn't settle on the first turn - although it's a fairly 'natural' map, so it doesn't tell us much.

[v8mark]

OK, so here's turn 0, and I did the sensible thing.



Further exploration to the north revealed some further goodies:



Deer and gold - the former of which is nice, the latter of which is super awesome!

Here are some demographics - will have a good look at this tonight and perhaps do some C&D. Depends how I feel.

[v8mark]

Just a quick look at technology:

Starting techs:
Jkaen - Hunting/Agriculture
Piet - Agriculture/The Wheel
TT - Mining/The Wheel
Ioan - Mysticism/The Wheel
Me - Hunting/Mysticism

One thing to note is that TT hasn't founded his city yet (I don't think he'd had a turn, in fact) so he can be discounted.

Rival GNP: 20 top, 13 avg. 13x4 = 52. Or 50-53, because of rounding issues. Best is 20, TT's is 1, so the other two total 29-32, which doesn't tell us an awful lot. No-one's creative apart from Ioan.

Just so I keep on top of this:

Soldiers
Me - 2000 - Hunting (2000)
Jkaen - 2000 - Hunting (2000)
Piet - 6000 - warrior (2000), The Wheel (4000)
TT - 8000 - warrior (2000), Mining (2000), The Wheel (4000)
Ioan - 6000 - warrior (2000), The Wheel (4000)

Best is 8000, worst is 2000, avg is 5500, so (8+6+6+2=22/4=5.5) - that checks out.

Land area
Total is 6250x4 = 25000 - best is 9000. So there are two water tiles in the first ring of the three players who've settled so far.

Other little tidbits from the demo screen:

- some are working 2/1 tiles, some 3/0 - no way of telling how many or who
- we have higher health than everyone else who's settled so far, which would suggest more forests (yay)

[v8mark]

Turn 1

...which is our second turn.

Nothing much happened, as you would expect -- the big news of the turn is that TT has still yet to settle his capital. Also, Ioan's borders popped, as one would expect given that he's creative, and his BFC has 17/21 land tiles. Given that information, it's reasonably safe to assume he's on the coast.

Top GNP went up to 21, which probably means that Ioan's border pop meant that he can work a 2-1-1 or 3-0-1 tile.

I think it also confirms him on a level 2 tech - any idea, Kyan? I'm really struggling to make that add up, I must admit - will do some more work on that this evening.

My scout moved NE-NE, and uncovered another crab to the far north. We're definitely at the top of the world.

Screenies:




(crap, thought I had demos. In any case, the only changes were those highlighted above)

Internet cookie for naming scheme guesses, as usual...

[v8mark]

Just realised I never posted Kyan's immensely useful email from before the first turn. Here's Kyan's advice (which, for any lurkers, pretty much double up as a guide as to what to do on the first turn of any PBEM):

Key things to note for first turn:

* Please put picture of starting location up in thread. I'd rather like to take a quick peek before we settle as it can potentially be a very important decision.
* Check settings to see difficulty and situation with barbarians.
* Can you see any ice on trees? Or perhaps edge of the map. Jungle/Tundra/Ice? We can use these to get a rough estimate of where we are.
* We asked for a natural map so expect wildly different starts and an unpredictable map.
* Remember to choose a tech! It will only give 1 beaker towards it as we don't have a city (based on the way the mechanic works, you always gain +1 beaker for free per turn irrespective of anything else), but it's free so why not.
* Go worker first. Always. It's by far the best build and helps start the snowballing economic powerhouse that we will certainly become. This is often difficult as most people new to MP go warrior first but worker always wins out. You can put yourself 5 turns or so behind those that took the risk otherwise. Yes, we start with no warrior and it's a risk. If someone gets very lucky, they could walk into our empty capital. It's your game but I strongly urge you to take that chance.

No huge threats in this game that I can see although Jkaen and Piet are total unknowns. We should be able to win if we play this well. Mansa Musa of Ottomans and Huayna Capac of Mali are probably the top picks. Although we're one of two civs with mysticism, I would advise not going for either an early religion or oracle. Leave that to the others and industrious civs. If we focus on economy, we'll gain more by that route. Oracle to Metal Casting is a tried and true technique BUT TT will land it in this game. He's industrious and he can unlock his half price unique building- yeah, just let him have that one.

Despite it being multiplayer, rushing to copper isn't always that much of a necessity. Our early tech path purely depends on what food is available but I'd say we're almost certainly pursue:

Agri, AH, mining and BW as the first four. The order depends on available food. Presuming no livestock, switch AH to the end and keep the others the same. We should only prioritise copper heavily if we find Zulu nearby, in which case we do everythign in our power to hook it up. Use our scout to a) Find city sites including a nearby one for city 2 and b) find our enemies. In that order.

Cheers,

Kyan

[v8mark]

Turn 2

All quiet round here...

Moved 2SE with the scout onto the forested hill, and found...



...some sheep to go with my gold!

This is awesome. Analysis of possible city sites to come this evening - Kyan, any early thoughts?

Demos before end-turn...



...of which more later today. In a nutshell, top GNP has confusingly gone down to 19, everyone's borders have popped, apart from TT who's only just settled.

Here's the land after end-turn, and subsequent border pop: