[SPOILERS] The Peaceful Centaur: a Study in Possibility

[Irgy]

I think settle in place is better than moving to get the sheep, since it will cost us another turn and lose us a hill start. With the lack of food, it's safe to say that plains hill start will be +1 hammer per turn for just about the rest of game.

Now, we really need to sort out our early tech path.

This what I currently believe to be best:
1. Ancient Chants -> Mysticism

Mysticism gives God-King, which is very good for Kuriotates (we'll probably stay in it all game), and is also an excuse to revolt out of pacifism - if we don't decide to just do it sooner anyway. Mysticism also gives half-price elder councils, which in turn allow a scientist with double gpps. It's important to get this going while we're still Philosophical. And pagan temples gives us another specialist if we want it.

2. Animal Husbandry

For the cows, not much more to say about that. Don't need to reveal horses. Could delay this, but with the shortage of food even plains cows are going to be very good to get.

3. Education.

Possibly before Animal Husbandry. Start cottaging those plains for commerce.

After this I'm less sure of the specifics. The question basically though is which economy and maybe military techs we pick up before going to Fanaticism. Certainly worth getting the ones which will get us to Fanaticism faster anyway. Also whether to get one or both religions before Fanaticism.

I'm currently thinking that Order at least is worth picking up. It's a shame we likely wouldn't have needed Code of Laws all that soon otherwise.

[Mardoc]

I wasn't sure about the beaker, but there have been too many games where I settle turn 2, and then turn 3 pops up with 'Hey, look at what you forgot to do last turn:neenernee'

That said, it's probably not worth the turn in anarchy, although when we have another civic worth switching to, Nationalism should piggyback. God-King's a perfectly reasonable place for it.

In general, I agree with your post. It might well be worth researching Horseback riding as well to unlock our centaurs - Str 4, move 3, with defensive bonuses makes an excellent scout and emergency buffer.

Mostly, though, we're going to have to react to what the game throws at us, so it's not worth planning too too far in advance.

I do agree getting some cottages started ASAP is important; if it's going to be a hundred turns before we have Enclaves, we'd better start. That of course means that valuable techs are those that boost village/town yield, up to Sanitation/Calendar (so that we can hit our cap with fewer farms), and assuming we ever find clothmaking materials, Crafting. But the first priority ought to be God King, Cows, and Cottages.

Edit: Also Mining would be good, so we have the option for a hammer focus at times, and to make sure we can get Copper and Jewelry materials. But again, not yet.

[Irgy]

Yeah a few horse techs are definately worth getting. Trade is on the way to the Empyrean tech Honor anyway, so we'll have the chariot-replacements. Horseback Riding is on the way to Trade - certainly looks like a better option for the pre-requisite to get than Sailing at this stage The big question really is when to get Stirrups for Centaur Archers.

Mining is important, but I'm pretty sure it's a mistake to get it before Education. It might come straight after though.

What I forgot to say before as well is that I think we should go worker-first, and therefore leave the warrior on the capital. The worker can start farming straight away. We have a hill start, so we should be fairly safe with just one garrison for quite a while.

In fact I'd also consider building a double-speed granary after the worker, as strange as that may sound. Normally I'm pump out warriors, but since we're stuck in Pacifism it's a bad time to build them. Once we've beelined Mysticism and revolted to God-King and Nationalism we'll be getting them at more than twice the production rate - 160% instead of 80% (more than double because of rounding). Growth is going to be slow, so I expect we'll get some use out of the granary. Haven't tested it out though.

[Irgy]

Game settings:


Of note:
* Low sea level is bad for us. Our number of cities limit is based on the map size, so with low sea levels there's more total land for the same number of cities. High sea level is good for the same reasons.
* No tribal villages. So don't bother looking for them. Also means no easy cash for early events, so it's worth working out when to save up. Might be worth popping graveyards instead if we see them.
* No unique features! It might mean they're hand-placed though. If there really is none it's bad for the Amurites - aside from using the mana in general, they get a golden age from Letum Frigis if they find it. Won't affect us much though as we're not planning to use much arcane magic.
* Don't know what the worldwrap is. Never understood why that doesn't appear, though you can deduce it from maintenance costs if you know the mechanics.

By the way, a general point for Maksim: Please ignore any whining I might do about the map or settings or anything related. If I have a problem with the map I'll wait until the end of the game to comment on it, when I have a full understanding. Until then any comment I make is just an observation.

[Mardoc]

Mining is important, but I'm pretty sure it's a mistake to get it before Education. It might come straight after though.

Agreed - it's up there on the priority list, but not yet at the top.

What I forgot to say before as well is that I think we should go worker-first, and therefore leave the warrior on the capital. The worker can start farming straight away. We have a hill start, so we should be fairly safe with just one garrison for quite a while.

In fact I'd also consider building a double-speed granary after the worker, as strange as that may sound. Normally I'm pump out warriors, but since we're stuck in Pacifism it's a bad time to build them. Once we've beelined Mysticism and revolted to God-King and Nationalism we'll be getting them at more than twice the production rate - 160% instead of 80% (more than double because of rounding). Growth is going to be slow, so I expect we'll get some use out of the granary. Haven't tested it out though.

Worker first I agree with, which is part of why we want to make sure to get AH and Education ASAP. The granary, well, I'm not sure. God-King hammers benefit all production, after all. The biggest cost to a Granary is that we won't be whipping our cities down all the time, especially on an Order/Empy/Angels plan. So the food it saves, while precious, is always going to be a one-time cost. And we won't be needing the extra health, either, with +3 from Expansive and another +2/3 from the resources we already see.

Meanwhile, we'd be missing our best opportunity to scout and find good sites for cities 2 and 3.

[Irgy]

The granary, well, I'm not sure. God-King hammers benefit all production, after all.

Well, it's true that I inadvertantly exagerated the need to build non-military before the Pacifism->Nationalism switch saying it's double, but a granary in particular is good to build before God-King specifically as well. Because it's doubled, it gets less out of the extra +50% than it should.

If we build, say, 2 warriors before the switch and Granary after it costs us:
32(granary) + 2x20(warriors) = 72 hammers
The other way around, it costs:
40(granary) + 2x10 = 60 hammers

So, that's a 20% saving and basically more than an entire warrior overall just from shuffling things around. Accounting for rounding the difference will be a little bigger. Also of course, the sooner the granary is built the more we get out of it - there's probably no point building it at all after God King because we'll be close to maximum population.

The biggest cost to a Granary is that we won't be whipping our cities down all the time, especially on an Order/Empy/Angels plan. So the food it saves, while precious, is always going to be a one-time cost. And we won't be needing the extra health, either, with +3 from Expansive and another +2/3 from the resources we already see.

Happiness does look like it'll be more limiting, but I do think you underestimate on both counts how big our cities are going to get. We are eventually going to want that extra health. We'll be growing to population 8 straight off the bat, and the extra food is going to help with that. It's going to help a fair bit on the later growth to much higher population. It's not just the raw food saved but the time to grow as well helps us.

On the whole, it will pay for itself in the long run, but it doesn't pay for itself in the short term, with only about 17 food gained growing from pop 4 (when it starts working) to pop 8 (our happy cap). However, I think 17 food is a good return on 40 hammers' investment at this stage of the game. It's a little more than that too because growing faster will get us a few more hammers and a little more commerce as well.

My experience so far with Kuriotates is that they generally have far more hammers early on than they really know what to do with anyway.

Meanwhile, we'd be missing our best opportunity to scout and find good sites for cities 2 and 3.

Well, this is true I'd agree. To some extent at least anyway. I think with a concentrated effort we can get enough scouting units out in time still though. We're honestly not in that much of a hurry to settle our second city, I think. Maybe it is worth building a scout or two before the granary, but still the granary before the revolt.

On the whole I'm not completely sold on the granary, but I do think it's worth considering for the reasons above.


In other news, I've attached a test save. Accurate only to what we can see of course. I had to guess the world wrap too, although it will help us figure it out when we compare maintenance. Don't feel obliged to do anything with it, but if you're going to play a single player game to try out Basium you might as well use this one

[Mardoc]

On the whole, it will pay for itself in the long run, but it doesn't pay for itself in the short term, with only about 17 food gained growing from pop 4 (when it starts working) to pop 8 (our happy cap). However, I think 17 food is a good return on 40 hammers' investment at this stage of the game. It's a little more than that too because growing faster will get us a few more hammers and a little more commerce as well.

My experience so far with Kuriotates is that they generally have far more hammers early on than they really know what to do with anyway.

I think you've convinced me. The math certainly wouldn't work if we weren't Expansive, though.

Well, this is true I'd agree. To some extent at least anyway. I think with a concentrated effort we can get enough scouting units out in time still though. We're honestly not in that much of a hurry to settle our second city, I think. Maybe it is worth building a scout or two before the granary, but still the granary before the revolt.

Fair enough. The other end of the stick is that yes, we'll be growing more and further, and our tech rate ought to be significantly higher than average, at least at first. So maybe we'll end up scouting with Centaurs.

In other news, I've attached a test save. Accurate only to what we can see of course. I had to guess the world wrap too, although it will help us figure it out when we compare maintenance. Don't feel obliged to do anything with it, but if you're going to play a single player game to try out Basium you might as well use this one

I'll keep that in mind, and maybe give it a whirl or two.

[Irgy]

I'm stuck at work, so feel free to play the turn by the way Mardoc. Not that it'll help much, the rest of the players are in Europe and so probably in bed now anyway.

I think we've agreed to settle in place, research Ancient Chants, move the warrior to garrison and scout wherever seems best with the scout.

Oh, the password by the way is:

Code:

Marcurians

Or I hope it is anyway, that's what I remember putting.

We should pick a post number somewhere in this thread and dedicate it to stuff we might need to look up from time to time, such as the test game and the password.

[Mardoc]

Alright, I played according to our consensus. No surprises so far.



I will probably attempt C&D work, starting tomorrow morning (a bit too tired to make sense of it now).

For the moment, the only noteworthy things are that Sciz and Selrahc haven't founded yet. And, come to think of it - unless there's some good sized lakes around, Selrahc's going to have a really tough time of it this game. Lanun without coves is a thought that just hurts.

In fact, some general speculation on our opponents; please add to this or correct me as necessary:

1. Selrahc is Hannah of the Lanun
   
   Selrahc is, of course, a pretty strong player, although I think he's not the strongest at economy. Hannah (Raider/Financial) is a strong leader in herself, and the Lanun can be quite handy. Except on this map, from what we know so far. If he's lucky, Maksim included some lakes/oceans, and Selrahc will be able to use them for food/commerce to compensate for the plains, and he'll still be a contender. If he's not lucky, well...he gets a weaker Champion and some naval unique units. At least Financial/Raiders is still a killer leader.
   
   The Lanun world spell, Raging Seas, won't do much of anything on this map unless we're underestimating the amount of water.
   
   Selrahc may be extra careful around us, even though we're not Pocketbeetle.
   
   
2. Sciz is Tasunke of the Hippus
   Sciz is, I think, on the medium to weak end of the scale as a player.
   
   He seems to be a builder type person, with a very non builder leader - Tasunke is Aggressive/Raiders. Assuming he plays to the leader, we'll be seeing some nasty, extremely fast horses coming around sooner rather than later. If he chooses a different target or we can outtech him, Centaurs can keep up with horses (assuming Sprint), and Angels aren't too shabby either.
   
   Unless he's absolutely ruthless with pillaging everyone into the dust, he ought to fall behind in the later game
   
   
3. Ichabod is Kandros Fir of the Khazad
   Financial/Aggressive/Ingenuity makes a strong leader. The Dwarves should do well on a hilly map. Ichabod's a strong player - if I remember right from reading the threads after PBEM4 ended, there was one spot where a lurker tried to point out something he'd missed, and he turned out not only to have taken that into account but also included a piece of info that the lurkers didn't know.
   
   The Dwarves are by nature slow units, although all these hills may make him surprisingly quick.
   
   I expect to have to fear Ichabod, and always take him into account.
   
   
4. Dantski is Ethne of the Elohim
   Don't know a lot about Dantski, he doesn't update his lurker threads that much. I also don't know a lot about how best to play the Elohim.
   
   He does have the handy Sanctuary spell to allow a total offense or bail him out of a rush.
   
   Ethne is Defender/Creative/Tolerant, a fairly weak combo.
   
   If Maksim didn't pre-place the Unique Features, his ability to see them is worthless, and he doesn't really have an econ focused leader or any especially noteworthy unique units. We should be able to outtech him and outwar him.
   
   
5. Jkaen is Dain of the Amurites
   
   Don't know much about Jkaen. The Amurites are of course completely focused on magic. They have all sorts of handy tricks due to their hero and their metamagic mana; if we give them long enough to set up, any unit they have can theoretically have every tier I spell for free. Any unit with Channelling II or III can then be as effective as a Mage - Priests, Firebows, High Priests. In addition, he gets that Cave of Ancestors bonus XP, so he can probably mass produce Mages.
   
   Dain wants lots of different mana sources, so as Irgy already mentioned, without Unique Features he's somewhat nerfed.
   
   Dain is Philosophical/Arcane; not especially focused on economy, although Philosophical's not bad.
   

So, all in all, we have 2 Raider opponents, 2 Financial opponents, and 2 Aggressive opponents, with the Elohim and Amurites also providing an arcane punch.

We should be careful not to overbuild roads, and try to strike a good balance of econ and military might; if we let either falter, we're in trouble.
I'm guessing the best place for a reference post is post #2, so I'll edit some of the info so far into it.

[Irgy]

Wow, still can't even fog-gaze some grassland. Where is it all hiding?

Alright, I played according to our consensus. No surprises so far.

Great, thanks. I suspect the turn will often appear around this time of day while I'm at work actually. Feel free to grab it whenever you like, although feel free to leave it too. It's not going to matter so much now when we're both aware of literally every decision to be made, but later when there's more and more decisions being made on the fly it'll matter more. Ideally it's good if we're both on top of what's happening at any given time. As long as we don't get into edit-wars Although actually I've been having edit-wars with myself in PBEM3 due to the lack of planning, maybe there'll be less in this game because by having to discuss things I'm more likely to plan a little better.

I will probably attempt C&D work, starting tomorrow morning (a bit too tired to make sense of it now).

When you do, this will help:


It tells us Ichabod settled on a plains hill, and is presumably working a 2f1h1c tile like we are. He's either saving cash (a reasonable possibility for the gold-dwarves) or researching something without a pre-requisite (anything but mining for him, e.g. Agriculture). No huts actually hurts him the most of anyone now that I think about it, as he gets the most out of early hut gold.

At first I thought his plains hill start was unfair, as well didn't get a plains hill start without wasting a turn. But, I forgot one thing: They're dwarves. They could move onto the hill for free. So the possibility of identical starts is still alive and kicking.

For the moment, the only noteworthy things are that Sciz and Selrahc haven't founded yet. And, come to think of it - unless there's some good sized lakes around, Selrahc's going to have a really tough time of it this game. Lanun without coves is a thought that just hurts.

Note that since everyone except Ichabod moves after we do, those who've settled already did so on the first turn - foregoing a plains hill start I expect.

As for the whole landlocked Lanun thing, well that's why I like that Maksim started on the map before we'd picked our civs, as this way it was Selrahc's bad choice (well, bad luck more likely, although we had already made it clear we didn't want a lot of water and that we weren't getting flavour starts) rather than Maksim nerfing his civ intentionally.

In fact, some general speculation on our opponents; please add to this or correct me as necessary:

I'll add my comments in another post.

I'm guessing the best place for a reference post is post #2, so I'll edit some of the info so far into it.

Thanks for doing that.