[FFH2PBEM6 Lurker Thread] The Peanut Gallery

[Maksim]

I think this would be acceptable; perhaps also point him at a post in some other thread which mentions this fact as part of the basic C&D, if you know of such?

By the way, I really like how the players are beginning to think outside the box - they are catching onto different strategies.

The thing worrying me slightly are the Lanun - how many turns are they going to spend wandering before settling down?

[Gaspar]

I never loaded up the map because I originally intended to dedlurk someone. Then after reading the unspoiled portions of the map thread I realized this game was going to require a FFH skill level greater than mine. This is all preamble to the following question, re: the Lanun's wandering...

... is there any coast or is this a 100% land map?

Because if there's no water, Selrahc's game is over before it started. Beyond the fact that they lose most of their civ-specific advantages, this meandering is a self-fulfilling nightmare... they've already wasted turns trying to find coast, so they'll feel like they can't give up until they see that there is none. By the time they find that out, they'll be settling on like T5, and that's more than likely too big a handicap to overcome when combined with the fact that no water crushes basic Lanun strategy.

Note I'm not criticizing you here (though I do think these guys deserved a slightly easier map after how hard PBEM4 turned out to be) I'm just curious.

[SevenSpirits]

Because if there's no water, Selrahc's game is over before it started. Beyond the fact that they lose most of their civ-specific advantages, this meandering is a self-fulfilling nightmare... they've already wasted turns trying to find coast, so they'll feel like they can't give up until they see that there is none. By the time they find that out, they'll be settling on like T5, and that's more than likely too big a handicap to overcome when combined with the fact that no water crushes basic Lanun strategy.

Eh, you can lose more than 5 turns just by poor research and build choices.

[Gaspar]

Yeah, but isn't it a generally accepted truth that the early turns are more important than the later ones? Have to be pretty stupid to waste 5 turns with build and research choices that early. I suppose I'm overstating - the point wasn't that he's doomed, but he's certainly digging himself an early hole.

[SevenSpirits]

Yeah, but isn't it a generally accepted truth that the early turns are more important than the later ones?

Hm? I don't think so. I mean there's a small effect from first-to-research awards and wonders that favors the early turns, but those things seem to be absent early in FFH, and there is a counterbalancing effect of research bonuses for techs other people know.

Maybe you are thinking of the fact that it is harder to waste an entire turn when you have multiple cities, than when you only have one city.

[Gaspar]

Maybe I'm just wrong.

I'm more what I would call fair-to-middling at Civ4 and a complete novice when it comes to FFH. My thinking is more along the lines of the fact that FFH takes such a while to ramp up, and on this map will take even longer, that delaying your start would seem to carry quite a penalty, as the longer it takes you to begin would seem to me longer until you get to that more forgiving multiple city place.

I'll stow it though, as usual, I'm most likely out of my depth here. At least Maksim didn't have to post to himself a dozen times though.

[Mist]

There is coast, and a fair amount of it, but terrain around is pure ice/tundra with Marble, Fur and Deer only resources to be found. He would be much better off by settling in place and making second or third city coastal. But then again, he doesn't know the map.

[Maksim]

I never loaded up the map because I originally intended to dedlurk someone. Then after reading the unspoiled portions of the map thread I realized this game was going to require a FFH skill level greater than mine. This is all preamble to the following question, re: the Lanun's wandering...

Uhmm... If you intended to ded-lurk someone, you should not have looked at the map thread at all; that thread is very much spoiler-land.

Because if there's no water, Selrahc's game is over before it started. Beyond the fact that they lose most of their civ-specific advantages, this meandering is a self-fulfilling nightmare... they've already wasted turns trying to find coast, so they'll feel like they can't give up until they see that there is none. By the time they find that out, they'll be settling on like T5, and that's more than likely too big a handicap to overcome when combined with the fact that no water crushes basic Lanun strategy.

Note I'm not criticizing you here (though I do think these guys deserved a slightly easier map after how hard PBEM4 turned out to be) I'm just curious.

Well, as Mist mentioned, coast is available; as a matter of fact, there are two decent-to-good locations to settle (one has a couple of seafood and pearls in BFC, another has one seafood and pearls in BFC), but they are in the polar wastelands, so you'd ideally be looking to expand there after KotE and Sun Mana for Scorch (either self-built or borrowed from Kurio's or whoever builds the Empy shrine).

Anyway, you are absolutely right that Selrahc is throwing away turns; and turns are turns: whether you miss them early, or you miss them late - at the end of the day, you still miss them, and put yourself behind the pack. Early turns are even more important, as the advantages tend to accumulate (get a settler out earlier, and you can win a settler race; or get the religion you want, have a holy city and establish cultural dominance in the area as well).

Now, Selrahc can still get back into the game - if he plays well, and avoids the mistakes others make, he'll make up for the lost time. And he does have several advantages:

1) Lanun are still Financial; so they will have an easier time teching than some others.

2) He will eventually find the seaside locations, and settle there - these will be much more powerful for him than for others (I'd expect the two-seafood location to be a Great Person farm - something that others can't do easily).

[Thoth]

Yeah, but isn't it a generally accepted truth that the early turns are more important than the later ones? Have to be pretty stupid to waste 5 turns with build and research choices that early. I suppose I'm overstating - the point wasn't that he's doomed, but he's certainly digging himself an early hole.

By delaying founding your first city by 5 turns you delay your second city by 5 turns, and your third and so on. The land would need to be significantly better in a new location to make up for those lost turns.

Even if he does find an awesome city site, it would need to be able to finish up the first settler at least 6 turns faster than the original site in order to be better than simply settling close to the start and building that mythical "awesome site" as city #2.

Selrahc's taking a big risk for not enough potential upside IMHO.

[pocketbeetle]

Quick note on Irgy and Mardoc: they really need to get out of Pacifism ASAP, there's no way you can wait for God-King with barbs on.
-20% military production early game is huge, adding turnS to even simple warrior production thanks to rounding down rules.
They're just going to have to bite the bullet and take the turn of revolt, although I guess they can wait for the first worker to be produced thanks to the 2 hammer plant.

As for city placement, I keep saying it, for land starts: consider commerce, for coastal starts: consider production.

They chose to settle on the plains hill where the settler is currently located, netting them [strike]3 mediocre food resources (good)[/strike] (damn it's only two, they missed the deer ) but zero commerce apart from the river.

I'd have suggested moving to the red X and then blowing the worldspell.
It would have meant 1 more turn delay (during which they could have revolted), but brings in the oasis (best early game tile), the same Wheat and Cow, and more importantly two desert Incense, perfect commerce tiles for working once they've reached the happy cap.
Prioritise KotE a bit higher in order to get Water I adepts out and Springing those three desert tiles, convert the mana node in the North to Mind. That'll give Inspiration and more beakers.
Plus there's always the chance there might be another resource in the fog (Dyes? Or are the starts not exactly the same?).

In the end, they're going for a Basium rush so they need to start going commerce crazy asap. Incense is one of the best tiles for that...and they've missed it with their capital BFC unfortunately.

Which means that the only possible reason is that this was that this was my one remaining pre-requisite for promotion to the thirty-third rank of the Venerable Order of the Worshipful Company of Cartographers (I've already aced the "cackling maniacally" test), which would qualify me for a white cat of my own, and a time-share of a moon base.

In short, nothing personal, just all in a day's work.

*Claps*