Some Elitist Rules Clarifications Needed

[KingOfPain]

I think we are on the same tree but on different branches here, you are reading too much into what I wrote and holding onto my tongue in cheek title of my first reply but missing the message.

If it is for the sole purpose to make the variant easier then the answer would be a flat out "NO". Which I do not think is the case for you. If the items some how add some interesting aspect or maybe a bit more challenge to the game/variant, then the answer is yes.

KoP

[KingOfPain]

Gosh, thats 3 computers ago since I last used the hack. A quick search on the current comp didn't turn up anything. I do remember I have at least backed up the entire Diablo folder to CD once or twice. I will pull some old boxes out of the shack and check some backups.


KoP

[Lemming]

I think we are on the same tree but on different branches here, you are reading too much into what I wrote and holding onto my tongue in cheek title of my first reply but missing the message.

I had no problem with the message. I felt your supportive arguments were weak.

-Lemmy

[KingOfPain]

Good. that message is what matters.

I didn't want to nit you but I felt your answers to Attika's questions left much to be desired, which, is why I tried to give Attika a gentle nudge toward the light.

What troubled me most is

It'd be fairly trivial to make a mod in which all uniques can drop. That'd remove both legitimacy and rules concerns, providing you game only with others using the mod.

I am guessing you have not fully explored the implication of that statement, but I will leave it to yourself to ponder over it :P

KoP

[Scrape]

#1. Can SP Unique items be used as birthday gifts and imported into a SP game (via an item importer) in a SP game where they do not show? For example, could you ask for an Undead Crown as your birthday gift when you turn clevel 10, even if you did not get the Leo Quest? Admitted, this items have no listed qlevel, but if you have ventured past the dungeon level where they "could" have appeared (had you gotten the quest) would you then be able to request the item?

Can they be used? Yes. But should they be used?

I always like to play by the rules, so to speak. (Not that everything is accurate.)

I feel you should play how you want to play. You should not have to adjust to the views of others. But perhaps you want to follow the rules set forth by others. That is fine.

I personally believe you should play within the original confines of the game. There should not be any importing of items. Therefore, for single player, you should not receive any birthday gifts.

As for #2, my answer is similar. I do not feel you should be importing single player unique items into multi player games.

But then again, it is all a matter of how you want to play. If it makes your game easier, more convenient, helps with determining things...

If you want to play that way, it is fine with me. I would rather you be happy. (Assuming you want to be happy.)

#3. What about items that are "impossible" to find (according to Jarulf)? Would they be allowable? I've seen listed on an item's inventory the Armor of Gloom and Jarulfs Guide says it is impossible to find in Hellfire. Allowable or no? What about an RoE? -- exists in Diablo (pretty common, actually) yet can't be found in HF. Allowable or no?

In terms of following the rules and such, this is also similar to my other answers. I prefer to stick to how the game was designed, regardless of whether or not it is flawed.

As to your first question, yes, there probably are. However, I do not feel strongly on any of these subjects. I do feel interested in discussing it, for it gives me a certain joy.

[Lemming]

KoP:
I am guessing you have not fully explored the implication of that statement, but [b]I will leave it to yourself to ponder over it.[/b]

Useless reply.

Lem:
It'd be fairly trivial to make a mod in which all uniques can drop. That'd remove both legitimacy and rules concerns, providing you game only with others using the mod.

This has exactly the same implications as saying, "I'll play a SNOB in VK mod."

The last provision (that one games only with others using the mod) is the most important. It establishes a closed game world, i.e. we're not gaming with people using Diablos that function differently. This means "legitimacy" is defined by what the mod allows. In contrast, people who use trainers on public Bnet are considered cheaters because their Diablo functions differently from everyone else's. If the trainer features were instead part of a mod and they gamed only with others using the mod, nobody would care.

The SNOB rules concerns that would be dropped as a result of an "all uniques" mod would be those that specifically consider only MP uniques. Since Optic Amulet would exist, the "perfect amulet rule" could be dropped. Moreover, there'd be no problem with (as Attika wanted) the SNOB using quest uniques or, say, Bramble in MP because the items could legitimately drop in the mod game world. In contrast, a SNOB in vanilla MP D1 could not use quest uniques or Bramble legitimately, and the variant rules rather expect that you won't.

You say "We sometimes broke legitimacy rules" by using of item importers for convenience. Importing items (unless one is using the importer to duplicate) isn't all that different from getting a friend to hold a game while you transfer. Since the game supports something roughly analogous to import/export (of MP-available items!), it's not really something that need be worried about from a legitimacy standpoint.

Importing SP quest items and other impossible items, otoh, is a totally different ballgame. Charis and Morwen, I believe, had "Balrog" and "Maelstorm" variants that used Schaefer's Hammer and Inferno as rings. But they specifically played them outside of variants games (i.e. in a closed environment) because those rings didn't exist in v1.07. That's a far more proper analogy to the sort of "legitimacy rule" we're breaking by importing SP quest items.

If that's not problematic, why is this? Are you afraid people will think it's a good idea to make mods idealized for their favorite variants? So what? Diablo has broken code all over the place. If someone wants to fix that (or make some other alterations) to make life better (not necessarily easier!) for their chars, who cares? As long as they player specifies in any write-ups "I'm playing a MOD-SNOB" there won't be any confusion or "Hey, you can't use Optic Amulet on a SNOB!" gripes. The biggest problem would be lack of standardization among the mods, but given the number of people who know how to mod and the number of people who are motivated to do it, I don't think that's going to be a problem.

If, instead, your concern is people might make mods that make Diablo significantly easier for their favorite variants -- like a mod for a BNM that removes all cursed items from the game, a BAR mod that removes all magical items so BAR finds whites easier, or an AMZ mod that removes all bosses so AMZ doesn't need to spend so much time hunting them :p -- again, who cares? Those sorts of mods kill the spirit of the variant. But my point is this : Not all mods will go against the spirit of the variant. In the end, the audience has the final judgment call. And if there is no audience, if the player is only gaming to amuse himself rather than chronicle his deeds of derring-do, his fun is his business.

-Lemmy

[KingOfPain]

-- again, who cares?

Is it not obvious to you that we care, and that the one who asked the questions cares?!?!

Those sorts of mods kill the spirit of the variant. But my point is this : Not all mods will go against the spirit of the variant

Enough said. Futher disscussion on your wholesale support to use hacks, or a collection of hacks (mod), is really a waste of time.

I have some LoD characters who use all the best of Unique items and the most uber (or "Unique") skills, most SNOBBISH indeed. But, I would not dare to call them SNOBS and insult this community.



KoP

[Lemming]

"... News at 11"

Is it not obvious to you that we care, and that the one who asked the questions cares?!?!

Read for context, KoP : "... again, who cares? Those sorts of mods kill the spirit of the variant. ... In the end, the audience has the final judgment call."

We'll see this point again.

Enough said. Futher disscussion on your wholesale support to use hacks, or a collection of hacks (mod), is really a waste of time.

What discussion? You've said approximately, "You haven't thought it through. I'm not going to tell you what's wrong with it. You figure it out."

I never said I'd support anything anyone wanted to do with modding. I said it wouldn't bother me so long as (1) it didn't affect people who weren't using the mod (2) the player didn't claim they achieved something with a variant without specifying all abnormal game conditions under which it was played. (2) is important because it allows me to make a judgment call on whether an "achievement" is admirable or malarkey.

I have some LoD characters who use all the best of Unique items and the most uber (or "Unique") skills, most SNOBBISH indeed.

This is where the judgement call comes in. If a D2 SNOB is a total joke, then it's a total joke. A D1 "mod" with uber uniques would be a total joke. A D1 mod that simply enables items that should drop in the first place seems perfectly reasonable, at least to me. Enabling quest items in MP goes a step beyond that, but I don't think they'd make an IM SNOB attempt a total joke. Do you? Is there something inherently unbalancing about these items, or is it just that real SNOBs don't have access to such items?

But, I would not dare to call them SNOBS and insult this community.

What the?

-Lem

[Attika]

Scrape, (I'm just going to address question 1 here)

I always like to play by the rules, so to speak, also.

The problem is, THERE ARE NO RULES governing SINGLE PLAYER Elitist variants. And yep, I do want to follow the rules set down by others, but THERE ARE NONE regarding single player Elitists.

If, as you suggest, you should receive NO Birthday Gifts in playing single player Elitists, look at this quest tree:

Poisoned Water
Gharbad and Ogden's Sign
The Magic Rock and Halls of the Blind
Zhar the Mad and the Magic Mushroom
Warlord of Blood

If you were to get this set of quests, potentially you could end up with two Unique Rings and one Unique amulet and that's it.

Now I've _PLAYED_ IM games where not a single unique has dropped in the entire game, levels 1 - 16.

So this would mean, potentially, you'd be taking on Hell and Diablo naked, weaponless, AND shieldless if you were trying to play a SP Elitist and happened to get these quests.

Of course, you COULD save the character and start more/different SP games until you got the quests of The Butcher and/or The Anvil of Fury, and thus got some weapons.

But then, doesn't this smack of cheese? I mean, sure you're abiding by the rules of the game/variant, but damn that sure smells like cheese to me.

So, without an item importer, how would you suggest playing an Elitist in Single Player? Would you allow the character to use their starting equipment until they actually find a Unique item?

But wait! That wouldn't be playing by the rules as set down in the Elitist variant!

So, instead, you get the wonderful task of possibly fighting through Hell armorless and weaponless and shieldless?

Or remaking games over and over again?

Attika

PS: If you DO NOT get birthday gifts every fifth character level in SP games, wouldn't you NOT be playing by the Elitist rules then?

[Scrape]

If there are no rules, then play how you feel it should be played, or try come to an agreement with others (which has not been seemingly successful in this thread).

You are acting like starting the game over is such a terrible thing. Okay, maybe not terrible, but cheesy anyway.

Often when people play characters, people progress in certain areas and then make new games to play there again. Perhaps it is because they are not powerful enough to go on. Not all players like to clear the whole game.

So, it does not feel like such a big deal to me, but of course we are all different. You might have to start games multiple times until you become better equipped. Oh well.

But to me this does not seem cheesy. You are "playing by the rules," as it goes, and you are just trying to become powerful enough to play in other areas.

PS: If you DO NOT get birthday gifts every fifth character level in SP games, wouldn't you NOT be playing by the Elitist rules then?

In a sense, yes, you would not be. But just like moving the variant to Hellfire, or perhaps to a different mod, you have to adapt to certain things. To me it is fine there are not gifts, especially if the way you want to get them is by importing.

I am not against people that use such programs, and I am aware of how they work. I just would rather not use them.