Some Elitist Rules Clarifications Needed

[KingOfPain]

I remember there were some discussions over an expanded set of rules (for MP) back in the Asylum days. There were some progress made - maybe even worth an update but the privilege was not mine. I did a quick search (just the word elite) of the Asylum forum from my achieve but nothing turned up except somewhat of a consensus for Inferno and Charged Bolt - similar to the discussion going on at the old rbd forum now. (Hehe, Nystul remains constant through all these years.) Here's the link to the thread, at the top of the page. I will do another search when I find more time.

I will gladly uplaod an addendum to the Elistist rules providing that you can generate interest in such a disscussion and come to some consensus.

I would suggest that you give a bit more details on what you want to achieve. Your original post (Q2) left me baffled

....could you import a Single Player Unique into your MP game? For example, the Empyrean Band has "of thieves" associated with it, and is the only (?) Unique which does so. Really could help with those fire-arrow traps in Cats. Could you choose to import an Undead Crown into MP, since the life-stealing abilities "stack" with other lifestealing items,...

I wasn't sure... If I didn't know better...I know you are not just trying to make the game easier. Yet that's what all the items and descriptions in your list will do.

Sometimes, when one has to make too many allowances to make the rules fit, one would be better off making up a whole new set of rules and call it something else - especially when it comes to old variants when the original author is not around to update or approve changes. (Again, I have no problem with an addendum)

If in the end you still need to use a trainer and dat files, importer or a full blown mod to achieve what you need, sure, go ahead. But I would explore the above options first.

I would not call my D2 unique wearing characters Elistist simply it's not the same "game" anymore, there is no point in bastardizing another person's work. (not saying that's what you are doing)


KoP

[Lemming]

[b]Da O'Toth:
"I  invented the elitists while suffering a severe case of, to put it into Freudian terms, unique-envy."[/b]

I believe this is the spirit of the Elitist variant. It's the core. It's what inspired it.

[b]KoP:
I wasn't sure... If I didn't know better...I know you are not just trying to make the game easier. Yet that's what all the items and descriptions in your list will do.
[/b]

Note the spirit is unconcerned with how difficult the variant is. "Difficulty" is a requirement you're projecting onto it, KoP. From the looks of things, Attika's suffering from a severe case of "unique-envy" just as Da O'Toth did. He's trying to resolve it.

What solutions have we come up with so far?

Q1
(1) No birthday gifts, since there's no way to transfer items.
(2) Quest items and "impossible in MP" uniques are fine as birthday gifts since they exist in the SP environment, but you'll need importer.

Q2, Q3
(1) No.
(2) If for SNOB-IM, possibly, but make note in your write-up that you're using non-standard stuff.
(3) Mod it, but make note in any write-ups that character isn't a vanilla D1 SNOB.

Anything I missed?

I would not call my D2 unique wearing characters Elistist simply it's not the same "game" anymore, there is no point in bastardizing another person's work. (not saying that's what you are doing)

The bastardization argument is bogus, KoP. D2-SNOB is only "bastardized" if the rules fundamentally disagree with the D1 rules. The conflicting elements that you describe have to do only with the difficulty of the variant, which is not something covered in the rules.

If the SNOB in D2 is a joke because it's too easy, it's simply not worth porting the SNOB there. Not because it "bastardizes" someone's work -- it's as similar as possible, but there's no point in having rules that don't actually restrict you. Don't make it into people victimizing the variant author. There's no victimization going on here, KoP, and it's absurd to even suggest it.

-Lemmy

[Attika]

Scrape first:

Scrape, you hit it exactly. What I was trying to do was try to come to an agreement with others at this forum -- unsuccessfully, as you have noted. Eh, I don’t mind that -- as long as we generate some thoughts and insights, we’re making progress.

The reason why I am unwilling to repeat dungeon levels to gain Uniques will be covered in my response to KoP, so see below.

I understand your personal desire not to use an item importer. I feel that same way about using one in regular Diablo or Hellfire. However, without using an item importer it would be impossible to play the Single Player Elitist variant using its stated rules. My distaste for “breaking written rules” and for creating my own just to suit my own needs is greater than my distaste for using an item importer.

Hence, when playing SP IronSnobs I choose to use the importer, and that is also why I came to this forum to try and come to a consensus regarding the rules.

KoP -- you asked for more details, so here they are!

As most who actually know me can attest, in Diablo I pretty much play Ironman style -- that’s all that interests me. I’ve also played (and continue to play) Ironman Hellfire.

So, I was trying to get a Single Player Barbarian through a Normal IM Hellfire game and was just cursing out loud at how difficult it was. Got to Level 10 and hit Blackstorm, and pretty much used every single resource I had up to that point to get past that ONE foe (his minions were no problem. HE was impossible!. We are talking all my ID scrolls (nine) and all my reds (except seven smalls). Just to get past that ONE freakin foe! (FYI with nine IDs I got a ring of the mind, an ammy of the mind, a ring of stability, a ring of harmony, a ring of the pit, a ring of the sky +3, a Battle Axe of Brilliance, a Bastard Sword of Structure, and a gold Axe with 12 durability.)

By the time I hit Hell 13 and Steel Lords showed up -- and me with the same gear I had IDed at level 10 and no more ID scrolls having dropped -- it was now taking me up and over four hours to clear each and every level (Blood Fountain was found on Church One, so it was fight Steel Lord#1, go and drink; Steel Lord#2, go and drink, ..... fight Steel Lord#89, go and drink, repeat ad nauseum.) It's not much fun depending upon your autohit to take out Steel Lords.

So when I hit dlevel 16 -- and Blood Knights showed -- I was definitely getting both frustrated and bored. I play a LOT of IM. And it takes a LOT to bore me. And believe me, I was getting bored out of my skull! Sometimes I was having to go and drink THREE TIMES to kill ONE Blood Knight!

So, I started a Hellfire IronSnob game, thinking that with certain Unique items it would be less frustrating/boring to play the game.

Now IronSnob rules got covered at the RBD by Taoni, (the link is here:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?for...geid=1026007995

but her(?) rules are for Multiplayer games, and it looks like Diablo rather than Hellfire too.

(By the way, your Ironsob link from the master list is broken.)

So, although I started the game (and am on dlevel 16 with this IronSnob Barb) I was noting differences and questions that arose during game play. And just like Scrape said, I brought them to this forum to discuss them and
come to some sort of consensus, if possible.

The three major issues that arose were:

#1. Can Unique items that only appear as SP quest rewards be available as birthday gifts to Elitists?

Now I ask that because these Unique items DO appear in the SP Diablo/Hellfire universe, so why should they not be available as gifts? Because they make the game easier? Ah, but doesn’t every single birthday gift you receive make the game easier? Yes, but those _could_ actually appear in the game. Ah, but the quest items could also appear in the game -- had the proper quest showed up. Yes, but the quest didn’t, ergo, you shouldn’t be able to receive this item as a gift. Ah, but a Gotterdamerung didn't show in this SP game either, yet I chose to receive it as a gift. But it _could_ have...... but so _could_ have. ..... You see? So I just wanted to clarify if SP quest items could be given as gifts.

#2. Can Single Player items be allowed in MP games? This would be a natural question to ask, depending upon how you chose to answer question #1. I’m not trying to make the game easier, I’m not trying to DO anything. I just want someone (us) to state in black and white: "This is what the 'experts' have determined the rule should be." Period. I’d rather have "us" make the call rather than someone else. Ergo, the issue needs to be raised and discussed.

#3. Are you allowed to use/import Unique Items that --according to Jarulf -- don't exist? Yet they appear in the list of Unique items available on the item importer? I’m asking this because the Armor of Gloom appears on Henjo's Unique items list, yet Jarulf says it is impossible to drop in the game. Yet there it is, Unique picture and all. It doesn't appear to be a hack (if it is, it is a terrific one.) Yet Jarulf's says it cannot exist.

But then, Jarulf's DOES say the Ring of Engagement can drop -- an drop quite often! -- in Hellfire! Yet Henjo’s list of items doesn't have it! Why not? I believe that prior to the demise of Blizzard's DSF forum it was discussed and concluded that it is _impossible_ for the RoE to drop in Hellfire due to the introduction of the new rings in HF. Thus, Jarulf's Guide is in error here.

And if it is in error on this point, might it also be in error regarding the existance of the Armor of Gloom?

Those are the three questions I'd liked discussed regarding Single Player Elitist Variants in vanilla (v1.01) Hellfire. (I’m not interested in discussing Mods at this point. Leave them out of the discussion for now.)

Attika


PS: It would be interesting if Da O'Toth was still around and could give his input. Anyone know how to contact him? Or is he out Diablo entirely?

[Nystul]

Looking at these three points:

#1. Can Unique items that only appear as SP quest rewards be available as birthday gifts to Elitists?
#2. Can Single Player items be allowed in MP games?
#3. Are you allowed to use/import Unique Items that --according to Jarulf -- don't exist?


They all are essentially falling into the same trap. The problem isn't that they go against the rules of the variant. The problem is rather that they go against the rules of the game itself. If you take the concept of Elitist out of the questions and simply asked if were legit to 1)import quest items into single player games, 2)import single player uniques into multiplayer games, or 3) import and use items that don't exist, then the answer would clearly be "no" to all three questions. That is the hangup, because the tradition here is that the rules of the variant are additions to the normal rules of the game rather than being exceptions or replacements for them (for example, Woody stated on the original BNM page that BNMs should not hack or dupe cursed items).

However, in a closed environment like single player, there is no special significance to the concept of "legit". It is the baseline that everyone can understand in terms of difficulty, style, and everything else, but beyond that it is not important in the context you are talking about. So if you wish (in single player) to deviate from the normal rules of the game in order to find the particular fit of style and challenge that suits you, go right ahead. I think you have played more than long enough to use your own judgment on what items are appropriate for what levels. Feel free to document your accomplishments here and the conditions under which they occurred, and we can judge them on their merits.

Would I call it a true single player elitist? No, I would say that a single player elitist cannot get gifts. Think of this as a parallel to the concept that a solo IronMan cannot be ressurected, simply because there is nobody to res him. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

PS: It would be interesting if Da O'Toth was still around and could give his input. Anyone know how to contact him? Or is he out Diablo entirely?

Sadly, I have not seen a Da O'Toth post in several years. Perhaps someone is still in touch with him by email, but otherwise you will have trouble finding him.

[Lemming]

Well-said on all points. Liked your analysis, too.

Would I call it a true single player elitist?

But this got me wondering : since the Elitist was written with D1 MP in mind, can a SP char be considered a true Elitist? :axe:

Useless point to ponder courtesy of your grumpy neighborhood,
-Lemmy

[KingOfPain]

It's you.

I can't believe you take some tongue in cheek commentary at face value and then claim that to be the spirit of the variant. It might set the tone and some basic ground rule, but spirit? Come on!

I am surprised you didn't get the joke - It's like Lok saying he is suffering a case of white item envy when he created the BAR variant.

Note the spirit is unconcerned with how difficult the variant is. "Difficulty" is a requirement you're projecting onto it, KoP.

You must be pulling my leg.

While the Elitists would not be rated one of the top ten most difficult variants there are, do you think the Elitists would make it as a variant without having difficulty imposed by item and/or spell restrictions? The variant was written for the Warrior class. He gets to use Heal and Teleport, so as far as spell restriction goes it has no practical importance. Thinking outside the box is a good thing, but you might want to look inside the box first. Difficulty is in the package - A warrior using unique items ONLY - Not exactly one of your top 10 best setup for a Warrior. It will take me forever to pull some stats together so I will just quote it from Dr Disasters SNOB guide - Note: using optimal gear, and the need to swtich setups to achieve these numbers.

AC
--
You already noticed that your AC is not enough to be comfortable. The maximum possible AC for a SNOB Warrior is

100 from Demonspike Coat
64 from Götterdämmerung (+dex already included)
40 from Stormshield
10 from 2 Rings of Engagement
6 from a perfect Amulet of Perfection
2 from the Falcon's Talon +dex modifier
12 from the warriors maxed base dex stat
------------------------------------------------
234 total points of AC

This may be sufficent for nm/h but never for h/h so you better get used to the no-AC-way.


Dexterity and Blocking
----------------------
You know (i hope you do) that dexterity is absolutly critical for successful blocking. Let's have a look on the maximum possible
dex rating of a SNOB Warrior:

60 from the warriors maxed base dex stat
20 from Götterdämmerung
10 from the Falcon's Talon
10 from the Blackoak Shield
5 from the Scavenger's Carapace
30 from a perfect Amulet of Perfection
--------------------------------------------------
135 total points of dexterity

Not as much as you'd like to have. With your current clvl of 32 you'd need 100+2*(45-32) = 126 dex in nm/h and
100+2*(60-32) = 156 dex in h/h for perfect blocking. As you see your needed dex for nm/h can be achived but for h/h it's
impossible.

Note: You need to reach at least clvl 43(! to meet the required dex rating of 100+2*(60-43) = 134. Until then you either need
to be extra careful (fighting only 1 or 2 melee monster at a time) or make increased use of spells to kill/stone/lure them.


To hit and attack speed
-----------------------
First attack speed. Since you WILL be forced to block very much without or low AC you need to be able to counterattack as
fast as possible. Therefore there is only one weapon that fills this need: the Falcon's Talon. It's build in Fastest Attack is simply
irreplaceable. Well you can also try to cleave those monsters up with one or two blows using Civerb's Cudgel, BloodSlayer,
Messerschmidt's Reaver, Grandfather or Doombringer since all these unique weapons have a very high to unbelievable damage
rating. But once you have experienced the assault of 3+ dogs, lightning or lava demons with no/low AC you WILL wish yourself
a really fast weapon!

Next important is to hit. Here the SNOB Warrior is in some real bad luck, since the best he can get is

80% from the warriors maxed base dex stat
10% from Götterdämmerungs +dex modifier
2% from Scavenger's Carapace' +dex modifier
5% from Blackoak Shields +dex modifier
25% from the Falcon's Talon (+dex already included)
45% from a perfect Gold Amulet of Perfection
xx% from 2 Rings of Engagement
20% from the warrior's hidden melee attack bonus
-------------------------------------------------
187% + xx% total to hit

The real to hit bonus from the RoE's is random since it reduced a monsters AC, giving an indirect to hit bonus this way. For each
RoE it's 4..12% which will be 8..24% when you use two of them. The final to hit is then 195..211%. Pretty good in my eyes ...

BUT! Until now me or other SNOB players have not been able to retrieve a perfect Gold Amulet of Perfection from the
dungeon. Since it adds the biggest part of the to hit calculation it's critical for effectiv melee vs h/h monsters.

This variant is all about items, the limited mods that are available on uniques sets the difficulty.

Just mod anything you don't like and call the variant by the same name?! OMG...

Hmm, since no one claims a perfect Gold/Perfection cannot be dropped, we might as well mod that in too... GPOW, anyone?

It's been fun, but STOP it already :axe:



KoP

[Lemming]

I can't believe you take some tongue in cheek commentary at face value and then claim that to be the spirit of the variant. It might set the tone and some basic ground rule, but spirit? Come on!

I define the spirit of a variant to be the basic underlying concept. When a rule question comes up, you refer to the spirit of a variant to make a decision. I think Da O'Toth's statement is good guidance there.

For instance, a Hellfre SNOB. Hellfire contains unique amulets (really bad ones, btw). Does the SNOB still retain the perfect amulet rule? I'd say no, because, in concept, the character prefers uniques. Even if the only amulet in Hellfire was a Super Uber Amulet of Godliness I'd still say this is the appropriate interpretation despite the unique amulet being better than any blue amulet. Thus, "difficulty" isn't a direct concern in the spirit.

While the Elitists would not be rated one of the top ten most difficult variants there are, do you think the Elitists would make it as a variant without having difficulty imposed by item and/or spell restrictions?

That's not what I'm saying, KoP. In fact, I've already addressed that : "there's no point in having rules that don't actually restrict you."

Difficulty is in the package

Yes, but the amount of difficulty is indirect. The level of difficulty is derived from the rules and your game environment. In Diablo and mods where uniques are only balanced for Normal Difficulty, SNOB's not gonna be a walk in the part. In D2 and mods where uniques are uberized, SNOB might not even be worth looking at.

It will take me forever to pull some stats together so I will just quote it from Dr Disasters SNOB guide - Note: using optimal gear, and the need to swtich setups to achieve these numbers.

Unnecessary. I don't need to be convinced of the difficulty, KoP.

Just mod anything you don't like and call the variant by the same name?! OMG...

It's the same concept, KoP. Why do you want invent new names for things we already have perfectly good names for? The concept is unique-using, elite-spell-using character. But a D1 SNOB has a totally different difficulty implication than, say, Middle Earth SNOB. The difficulty is derived from the unique items available and the monsters you'll face.

Hmm, since no one claims a perfect Gold/Perfection cannot be dropped, we might as well mod that in too... GPOW, anyone?

Do not strawman me again.

-Lemmy

[KingOfPain]

Nothing productive will come from these exchanges while (he said) you are hanging on thin air, and (she siad) I remain "snobbish".

We are abviously wasting each other's time on this sub thread. :rolleyes:

KoP

[KingOfPain]

The link is fixed. Thanks for the heads-up.
Wise choice, forget about mods, at least for the time being.

Nystul has got it covered. I would just like to add that you would gain nothing from using the Elitist name other than
- adding confusion to distract from your accomplishments. Name or no name, or by any other name, you would still have to spell out under what conditions the deeds are achieved.
- generate negativivty, prejudice from those who would perfer you not use the Elitist variant name.

I can appreciate (from your description) the difficulty (and tedium) level of your quest and I would have no problem if you play IT the way you think best. And I would still enjoy reading your reports.

Good luck and Enjoy


KoP

[Lemming]

Nystul has got it covered. I would just like to add that you would gain nothing from using the Elitist name other than
- adding confusion to distract from your accomplishments. Name or no name, or by any other name, you would still have to spell out under what conditions the deeds are achieved.

(1) How would saying you're playing, for instance, a "VK SNOB" generate confusion? The terms would need to be mutually exclusive.

(2) Of course one has to spell out the conditions under which they play. I think everyone in this thread has agreed on that... multiple times.

- generate negativivty, prejudice from those who would perfer you not use the Elitist variant name.

Under what precedent do you say this? I have never seen this before, except from you in this thread. Did this happen sometime in the distant past and I don't know about it? Was there some fight when someone, oh heavens, claimed to play a VK BNM and got blasted for it?

-Lem